Offerings

[Rhiannon]

Recently PD and I were discussing the collection that takes place as part of a church service. When this takes place it is blessed at the altar as an offering. Flowers on an altar are an offering - I think pretty much every tradition has this in some form. In pagan ritual cakes and ale is shared and some left as an offering. I take a pocketful of bird seed out when I walk and scatter it as an offering.

Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?

[Owlswing]

Recently PD and I were discussing the collection that takes place as part of a church service. When this takes place it is blessed at the altar as an offering. Flowers on an altar are an offering - I think pretty much every tradition has this in some form. In pagan ritual cakes and ale is shared and some left as an offering. I take a pocketful of bird seed out when I walk and scatter it as an offering.

Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?

In addition to the offerings of cake and ale to the Coven's guardian deities, our Coven leaves an offering of salt and honey to the 'spirits of place'.

Our Covenstead is on hill where once stood a monastery whose Abbot was murdered and there is also a cemetary for the monks of the monastery and the spirits of these monks are, at the beginning of ritual,  offered salt and honey as thanks for them allowing us to hold our rituals without interference.   

[Rhiannon]

That's rather nice. 

[Owlswing]

That's rather nice. 

Thank you.

[Shaker]

Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?

I believe so. Take your example of bird seed - whatever you call it and whoever does it for whatever reason, that's a small, compassionate act of kindness that does good to giver and receiver alike. It's a practical act of concrete good for the birds - the sort of act that a non-theist is more likely to engage in, offerings to gods being a little more ... well, less immediately obviously appreciated, shall we say.

[Owlswing]

Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?

I believe so. Take your example of bird seed - whatever you call it and whoever does it for whatever reason, that's a small, compassionate act of kindness that does good to giver and receiver alike. It's a practical act of concrete good for the birds - the sort of act that a non-theist is more likely to engage in, offerings to gods being a little more ... well, less immediately obviously appreciated, shall we say.

When it is pissing down with rain twenty minutes before ritual and bright sunshine two minutes before and during ritual . . .

And our Coven are not fair-weather Pagans - in the last twelve years we have only cancelled two rituals and those only because for one cars couldn't get up the hill even with snow chains and the other because Avebury was completely cut off by snow.

Not a bad record even if I do say so myself.

[Hope]

Recently PD and I were discussing the collection that takes place as part of a church service. When this takes place it is blessed at the altar as an offering.

Never ever attended a church where the offering is 'blessed', Rhi.  Thanked for and the givers blessed, perhaps; prayer that the leaders responsible for the money's use would use it wisely, definitely.  The money blessed, no.

Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?

I suppose it depends on what you understand the giving of offerings to be.  Is it some sort of tax, or is it some sort of sign of gratitude.  I recently gave my wife an 'offering' of a sizeable bunch of flowers to show my gratitude for her support and care for me over the last couple of weeks.

[Hope]

It's a practical act of concrete good for the birds - the sort of act that a non-theist is more likely to engage in, offerings to gods being a little more ... well, less immediately obviously appreciated, shall we say.

I'd disagree, Shaker: money that is given within our offering for specific parts of our church's ministry is often used within hours - to help a homeless person raise a bond for accommodation; to provide a poor family with food from our food bank; to provide someone with much-needed counselling - be that psychological or regarding debt-relief or substance-abuse advice.

[Shaker]

Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.

Religion was providing welfare and practical help years before Governments or secular societies. in our own secular society welfare is frowned on.

I would like to see an antitheist on this site compose a letter announcing that chaplain services are to be withdrawn and replaced by counsellors working on Dawkinsian principles........or don't you have the guts?

[Rhiannon]

Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?

I believe so. Take your example of bird seed - whatever you call it and whoever does it for whatever reason, that's a small, compassionate act of kindness that does good to giver and receiver alike. It's a practical act of concrete good for the birds - the sort of act that a non-theist is more likely to engage in, offerings to gods being a little more ... well, less immediately obviously appreciated, shall we say.

Yes, it's an act of gratitude. It's not necessary to be grateful to anything, just for it.

[Shaker]

Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.

Religion was providing welfare and practical help years before Governments or secular societies.

Just not very widely or well.

in our own secular society welfare is frowned on.

By Tories, certainly, but that's the kind of people they are and always have been.

I would like to see an antitheist on this site compose a letter announcing that chaplain services are to be withdrawn and replaced by counsellors working on Dawkinsian principles........or don't you have the guts?

I would like you to get some sort of help for your condition but that's not going to happen either.

[BashfulAnthony]

Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.

Religion was providing welfare and practical help years before Governments or secular societies.

Just not very widely or well.

in our own secular society welfare is frowned on.

By Tories, certainly, but that's the kind of people they are and always have been.

I would like to see an antitheist on this site compose a letter announcing that chaplain services are to be withdrawn and replaced by counsellors working on Dawkinsian principles........or don't you have the guts?

I would like you to get some sort of help for your condition but that's not going to happen either.

That's not true, Shaker.  Whatever it's failings or shortcomings, the Church, and Church people, have always done huge amounts for the poor and needy.

[Shaker]

That's not true, Shaker.  Whatever it's failings or shortcomings, the Church, and Church people, have always done huge amounts for the poor and needy.

I'm not quibbling about that in the least; I meant not on the same scale as any welfare state as we know it, since no church has the resources, the organisational and management skills, the bureaucracy as any government.

[Rhiannon]

I don't know if it is a failing of paganism or not, that we don't have any resources at our disposal to organise anything. PD was saying recently that he can't understand why charities have to advertise their religion; maybe it's better that pagans just give to and work through secular organisations.

[Jack Knave]

Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?

No. They are there to appease the gods. There are no gods. It stems from the primitive mind set of fear of them, or trying to keep in their good books; kind of like being accepted into the 'spiritual' clan. Children do this with their parents to reassure their acceptance in the family. Pack animals do a similar thing.

[Owlswing]

Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?

No. They are there to appease the gods. There are no gods. It stems from the primitive mind set of fear of them, or trying to keep in their good books; kind of like being accepted into the 'spiritual' clan. Children do this with their parents to reassure their acceptance in the family. Pack animals do a similar thing.

As a Pagan I disagree.

We have nothing to fear from our deities. They do not threaten us with any kind of punishment for anything we do,

The only "punishment" that most pagans recognise is karma and that is not inflicted by the deities.

[BashfulAnthony]

Do offerings matter, and is there any place for them for non-theists?

No. They are there to appease the gods. There are no gods. It stems from the primitive mind set of fear of them, or trying to keep in their good books; kind of like being accepted into the 'spiritual' clan. Children do this with their parents to reassure their acceptance in the family. Pack animals do a similar thing.

As a Pagan I disagree.

We have nothing to fear from our deities. They do not threaten us with any kind of punishment for anything we do,

The only "punishment" that most pagans recognise is karma and that is not inflicted by the deities.

But atheists say that God is an invention.  So why invent something that may punish you?  Much easier to invent a benign being who offers no threat or fear. 

[Shaker]

But atheists say that God is an invention.  So why invent something that may punish you?  Much easier to invent a benign being who offers no threat or fear.

Human psychology is vastly more complex, tortuous and mysterious than you seem willing to acknowledge. What if a punitive deity is in fact an externalisation of what Freud called the supergo, the conscience?

[BashfulAnthony]

But atheists say that God is an invention.  So why invent something that may punish you?  Much easier to invent a benign being who offers no threat or fear.

Human psychology is vastly more complex, tortuous and mysterious than you seem willing to acknowledge. What if a punitive deity is in fact an externalisation of what Freud called the supergo, the conscience?

Freud was over-rated.  And he got that bit badly wrong, as with much of what he said:  see,

io9.com/why-freud-still-matters-when-he-was-wrong-about-almost- 1055800815‎

[Hope]

Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.

Religion was providing welfare and practical help years before Governments or secular societies.

Just not very widely or well.

Sorry, Shaker - regarding width of provision, you can't get much wider than the ruling class at one end and the poorest of the poor at the other.  As for the issue of quality, not only did they provide terminal care, they provided a lot of care based on Islamic medical principles and other herbal treatments some of which remain in use today.  It was also often the religious bodies who specialised in developing medical practice.

[Shaker]

But atheists say that God is an invention.  So why invent something that may punish you?  Much easier to invent a benign being who offers no threat or fear.

Human psychology is vastly more complex, tortuous and mysterious than you seem willing to acknowledge. What if a punitive deity is in fact an externalisation of what Freud called the supergo, the conscience?

Freud was over-rated.  And he got that bit badly wrong, as with much of what he said:  see,

io9.com/why-freud-still-matters-when-he-was-wrong-about-almost- 1055800815‎

So there's no such thing as conscience?

Dead link, by the way.

[BashfulAnthony]

But atheists say that God is an invention.  So why invent something that may punish you?  Much easier to invent a benign being who offers no threat or fear.

Human psychology is vastly more complex, tortuous and mysterious than you seem willing to acknowledge. What if a punitive deity is in fact an externalisation of what Freud called the supergo, the conscience?

Freud was over-rated.  And he got that bit badly wrong, as with much of what he said:  see,

io9.com/why-freud-still-matters-when-he-was-wrong-about-almost- 1055800815‎

So there's no such thing as conscience?

Read the link.  But I did say, "much" of what he said was wrong.

[Shaker]

Read the link.

I would have done if it had worked.

[Hope]

Real, practical help for real things that actually exist, then - not offerings to gods. Exactly as I already said.

Precisely, Shaker, because God is not a remote entity but a being who is intimately involved in everyday life.  So, monies in the offering are a means of thanking God for his generosity to us in so many ways - life, health, education, forgiveness, roof over one's head, etc., and given so that those blessings can be shared with others who don't necessarily share in those in the same way as we do.  It isn't either/or; its both/and.