Angels

[Rhiannon]

Suspect on what basis?

You clearly have no evidence of this otherwise you wouldn't have to suspect anything, you'd simply lay it before us. So suspect on what basis?

Because they either admit to following religious aspects, or do not deny it - in case you haven't noticed.  But then, you are probably too busy visiting various religious forums.

No, I haven't noticed atheists following religious aspects of Christmas. Which atheists and which religious aspects are they following? Specifically, I mean.

Never sent or received a Christmas card, or been to a carol service, or nativity, joined in with carols, or just enjoyed listening to them, given or received Christmas presents, said "Happy Christmas" to someone, etc, etc.  Any atheist who denies doing any, or all those things, is an arrant liar.

BA, attending nativities or carol services isn't the same thing as following them. I've attended Leyton Orient football matches but I don't follow them.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, for whatever reason Easter probably borrows the name of a pagan goddess (no other explanation being forthcoming). Well, the winter festival that most people celebrate has the name of your God in it. That's all.

[Alan Burns]

How do you tell the difference between an angel who appears as an ordinary person and, well, an ordinary person who's not an angel, then?

The "angel" who rescued us in the Algarve may well have been a kind person just passing in his boat at the right time (but I have never come across a man in a rowing boat in the Algarve before or since).

And?

Whether the man in the boat was an angel or not, he was an answer to prayer.  Amazing things happen when you pray, you just need a little faith to make it work.

[Rhiannon]

So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?

[Gordon]

Never sent or received a Christmas card, or been to a carol service, or nativity, joined in with carols, or just enjoyed listening to them, given or received Christmas presents, said "Happy Christmas" to someone, etc, etc.  Any atheist who denies doing any, or all those things, is an arrant liar.

For a start Christmas cards are a Victorian invention, personally I don't 'do' religious songs at all (Xmas or otherwise), present-giving was part of the December-held Saturnalia festival that predates Christianity, and then there are other mid-winter festivals such as the pagan one Yule, and for me anyway saying 'Merry/Happy Christmas' is just a seasonal variation of expressions such 'Hope your are well or Have a nice day'.

Christianity can do or say what it likes surrounding Christmas, apart of course from claiming that this particular holiday (or Easter for that matter) are exclusively Christian inventions: they aren't.

[ProfessorDavey]

Suspect on what basis?

You clearly have no evidence of this otherwise you wouldn't have to suspect anything, you'd simply lay it before us. So suspect on what basis?

Because they either admit to following religious aspects, or do not deny it - in case you haven't noticed.  But then, you are probably too busy visiting various religious forums.

No, I haven't noticed atheists following religious aspects of Christmas. Which atheists and which religious aspects are they following? Specifically, I mean.

Never sent or received a Christmas card, or been to a carol service, or nativity, joined in with carols, or just enjoyed listening to them, given or received Christmas presents, said "Happy Christmas" to someone, etc, etc.  Any atheist who denies doing any, or all those things, is an arrant liar.

Not sure why a christmas card aligns with the 'religious' rather than the mid winter 'seasonal' (non religious) aspect of the festival. Certainly I don't send christmas cards with any religious theme on them, and probably 80-90% of those I receive aren't religious either - focusing on non religious seasonal imagery such as robins in snow, penguins, decorated northern european trees in winter etc etc. You know the standard christmas imagery, most of which isn't religious at all.

On the other ones, yup I have been to them - but so what - I like singing choral music and I have kids so it is pretty unlikely I'd be avoiding carols or nativities. But actually I don't usually go to carol 'services' (i.e. as part of  religious worship), my carol singing tends to be in carol 'concerts' (sure we sing carols but there is no other religious aspect and certainly no worship), for charity (e.g. at the railway station, in Trafalgar Square) and to elderly people in sheltered accommodation. And in no case (beyond the carol itself) is their anything religious and certainly no religious worship.

[Rhiannon]

There's nothing hypocritical about attending a religious service at Christmas or at any time as a non-believer unless you are pretending to believe when you don't.

[floo]

How do you tell the difference between an angel who appears as an ordinary person and, well, an ordinary person who's not an angel, then?

The "angel" who rescued us in the Algarve may well have been a kind person just passing in his boat at the right time (but I have never come across a man in a rowing boat in the Algarve before or since).

And?

Whether the man in the boat was an angel or not, he was an answer to prayer.  Amazing things happen when you pray, you just need a little faith to make it work.

If that sky fairy is capable of answering prayers positively why the heck doesn't it do so every time there is a need?

[ProfessorDavey]

There's nothing hypocritical about attending a religious service at Christmas or at any time as a non-believer unless you are pretending to believe when you don't.

That's true.

[Shaker]

Whether the man in the boat was an angel or not

No reason to believe so.

he was an answer to prayer.  Amazing things happen when you pray, you just need a little faith to make it work.

It has to be said that it tends to be the case that people who believe in such things suffer from a massive case of confirmation bias, interpreting any positive event as an answer to prayer but conveniently overlooking neutral or negative events.

[Shaker]

Never sent or received a Christmas card

Most people do this as it's a nice way of reminding people that you're thinking of them. In a lot of cases, as everyone knows, a Christmas card is the only point of contact between acquaintances once a year. As Gordon has pointed out, they were/are a Victorian invention, as with so much else about Christmas - 1843, to be precise, an idea of Henry Cole (who along with Rowland Hill had been instrumental in creating the modern postal service as we know it a few years earlier) designed to get people using the system.

or been to a carol service

Never done that.

or nativity

Or that.

joined in with carols

Or that.

or just enjoyed listening to them

Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.

given or received Christmas presents

Of course - it's gift-sharing season.

said "Happy Christmas" to someone, etc, etc.

That's an expression of good wishes along the same lines as wishing someone a happy birthday on their birthday, isn't it?

Any atheist who denies doing any, or all those things, is an arrant liar.

I was expecting a few examples of something specifically Christian about Christmas. Was that supposed to be it?

[Rhiannon]

There's something truly bizarre about thinking the hideous waste and oneupmanship that exists around Christmas cards is in any way Christian.

*apologies for earlier bollocks courtesy of autocorrect.

[floo]

There's something truly bizarre about thinking the hideous waste and neuroma ship that exists around Christmas cards is in any way Christian.

I wish all cards could be e-cards, as they are such a waste of paper, just to be chucked out as soon as Christmas is over.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, aside from a card to aged relatives who don't do technology they serve no purpose.

[floo]

Yes, aside from a card to aged relatives who don't do technology they serve no purpose.

Agreed.

[BashfulAnthony]

Never sent or received a Christmas card

Most people do this as it's a nice way of reminding people that you're thinking of them. In a lot of cases, as everyone knows, a Christmas card is the only point of contact between acquaintances once a year. As Gordon has pointed out, they were/are a Victorian invention, as with so much else about Christmas - 1843, to be precise, an idea of Henry Cole (who along with Rowland Hill had been instrumental in creating the modern postal service as we know it a few years earlier) designed to get people using the system.

or been to a carol service

Never done that.

or nativity

Or that.

joined in with carols

Or that.

or just enjoyed listening to them

Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.

given or received Christmas presents

Of course - it's gift-sharing season.

said "Happy Christmas" to someone, etc, etc.

That's an expression of good wishes along the same lines as wishing someone a happy birthday on their birthday, isn't it?

Any atheist who denies doing any, or all those things, is an arrant liar.

I was expecting a few examples of something specifically Christian about Christmas. Was that supposed to be it?

There are other examples, if I could be bothered;  but if you only admit to one of the examples, you are a hypocrite.  Keep digging, old son!

[ProfessorDavey]

Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.

A number of other English composers closely associated with writing church music and carols also aren't religious.

For example Vaughan-Williams' good friend Gerald Finzi - thoroughly recommend his 'In terra pax' - beautiful and guaranteed to make me cry.

Also the current standard bearer for Christmas carols, John Rutter - its pretty tricky to go to a carol concert (or service) these days without a Rutter piece being sung.

[Leonard James]

There's something truly bizarre about thinking the hideous waste and oneupmanship that exists around Christmas cards is in any way Christian.

There is a hideous waste of time and energy on all things religious, but adherents 'justify' it with "it helps some people to face life".

[Rhiannon]

There's something truly bizarre about thinking the hideous waste and oneupmanship that exists around Christmas cards is in any way Christian.

There is a hideous waste of time and energy on all things religious, but adherents 'justify' it with "it helps some people to face life".

Nope, not music, nor architecture are or have been a waste of time or energy.

[Leonard James]

There's something truly bizarre about thinking the hideous waste and oneupmanship that exists around Christmas cards is in any way Christian.

There is a hideous waste of time and energy on all things religious, but adherents 'justify' it with "it helps some people to face life".

Nope, not music, nor architecture are or have been a waste of time or energy.

I was, of of course, referring to the time and energy wasted on ritual behaviour rather than actual artifacts.

[Shaker]

There are other examples, if I could be bothered;  but if you only admit to one of the examples, you are a hypocrite.  Keep digging, old son!

Then be bothered with these other examples, and let's hope they're better fare than the previous feeble set, none of which were specifically Christian as you claimed.

[BashfulAnthony]

There's something truly bizarre about thinking the hideous waste and oneupmanship that exists around Christmas cards is in any way Christian.

There is a hideous waste of time and energy on all things religious, but adherents 'justify' it with "it helps some people to face life".

Nope, not music, nor architecture are or have been a waste of time or energy.

I was, of of course, referring to the time and energy wasted on ritual behaviour rather than actual artifacts.

And what behaviour do you indulge in that others may construe as a waste of time?  Or are you really perfect?

[Leonard James]

And what behaviour do you indulge in that others may construe as a waste of time?  Or are you really perfect?

Whatever I am is streets ahead of you, dear BA. 

[BashfulAnthony]

Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.

A number of other English composers closely associated with writing church music and carols also aren't religious.

For example Vaughan-Williams' good friend Gerald Finzi - thoroughly recommend his 'In terra pax' - beautiful and guaranteed to make me cry.

Also the current standard bearer for Christmas carols, John Rutter - its pretty tricky to go to a carol concert (or service) these days without a Rutter piece being sung.

Any musucian who is an atheist and spends time writing religious music, has issues!

[BashfulAnthony]

And what behaviour do you indulge in that others may construe as a waste of time?  Or are you really perfect?

Whatever I am is streets ahead of you, dear BA. 

And how would you know that, old man?  Perhaps you could elucidate?

[Leonard James]

And how would you know that, old man?  Perhaps you could elucidate?

Just be reading your posts, dear boy!