Author Topic: Angels  (Read 19188 times)

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Angels
« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2015, 08:15:07 PM »
Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.
A number of other English composers closely associated with writing church music and carols also aren't religious.

For example Vaughan-Williams' good friend Gerald Finzi - thoroughly recommend his 'In terra pax' - beautiful and guaranteed to make me cry.

Also the current standard bearer for Christmas carols, John Rutter - its pretty tricky to go to a carol concert (or service) these days without a Rutter piece being sung.

Any musucian who is an atheist and spends time writing religious music, has issues!
What a load of rubbish. They are professional composers, it is how they make their living and they are rather good at it.

Do you think a professional carpenter or architect shouldn't work on a religious building if they don't believe. Just non-sense. Maybe in your world a left wing professional actor should never play the part of a right wing politician in a film.

Actually I think Rutter finds it almost amusing that he has made his career (and his living) being commissioned to compose sacred choral music even though he isn't a believer. But that's because he is very good at it. And actually in many cases these days the commissions do not come from religious organisations at all, but from secular choirs. And without secular choirs much of sacred choral music would be dead. You will no doubt be able to hear the Faure requiem in full will be performed in choir concerts up and down the country this coming weekend, just as last weekend. And lots of people will be paying good money to enjoy those concerts. Most of the great choral works these days are never heard as part of services of religious worship, but are performed in concerts with no worship element at all.

I wonder when the last time was when it was sung, in full, actually as a requiem mass at a funeral.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 08:21:23 PM by ProfessorDavey »

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7520
Re: Angels
« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2015, 08:20:42 PM »
Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.
A number of other English composers closely associated with writing church music and carols also aren't religious.

For example Vaughan-Williams' good friend Gerald Finzi - thoroughly recommend his 'In terra pax' - beautiful and guaranteed to make me cry.

Also the current standard bearer for Christmas carols, John Rutter - its pretty tricky to go to a carol concert (or service) these days without a Rutter piece being sung.

Any musucian who is an atheist and spends time writing religious music, has issues!
What a load of rubbish. They are professional composers, it is how they make their living and they are rather good at it.

Do you think a professional carpenter or architect shouldn't work on a religious building if they don't believe. Just non-sense.

Actually I think Rutter finds it almost amusing that he has made his career (and his living) being commissioned to compose sacred choral music even though he isn't a believer. But that's because he is very good at it. And actually in many cases these days the commissions do not come from religious organisations at all, but from secular choirs. And without secular choirs much of the sacred choral music would be dead. You will no doubt be able to hear the Faure requiem in full will performed in choir concerts up and down the country this coming weekend, just as last weekend. And lots of people will be paying good money to enjoy those concerts.

I wonder when the last time was when it was sung, in full, actually as a requiem mass at a funeral.
It's rather different earning your living working in stone or wood, than composing music to celebrate Christianity  -  fool. 
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Angels
« Reply #102 on: November 10, 2015, 08:22:07 PM »
Often done that, as I love music. One of my heroes, Ralph Vaughan Williams (an atheist) collected and even wrote many, for the self-same reason. Listening to a Christmas carol no more makes one a Christian than listening to traditional Indian music (something else I do a lot) makes me a Hindu. It's just music.
A number of other English composers closely associated with writing church music and carols also aren't religious.

For example Vaughan-Williams' good friend Gerald Finzi - thoroughly recommend his 'In terra pax' - beautiful and guaranteed to make me cry.

Also the current standard bearer for Christmas carols, John Rutter - its pretty tricky to go to a carol concert (or service) these days without a Rutter piece being sung.

Any musucian who is an atheist and spends time writing religious music, has issues!
What a load of rubbish. They are professional composers, it is how they make their living and they are rather good at it.

Do you think a professional carpenter or architect shouldn't work on a religious building if they don't believe. Just non-sense.

Actually I think Rutter finds it almost amusing that he has made his career (and his living) being commissioned to compose sacred choral music even though he isn't a believer. But that's because he is very good at it. And actually in many cases these days the commissions do not come from religious organisations at all, but from secular choirs. And without secular choirs much of the sacred choral music would be dead. You will no doubt be able to hear the Faure requiem in full will performed in choir concerts up and down the country this coming weekend, just as last weekend. And lots of people will be paying good money to enjoy those concerts.

I wonder when the last time was when it was sung, in full, actually as a requiem mass at a funeral.
It's rather different earning your living working in stone or wood, than composing music to celebrate Christianity  -  fool.
Not really - they make their living in music rather than stone or wood.

In your world should a non believing professional stained glass artist refuse a commission to make, or restore a church window. Or a christian stained glass artist refuse a commission to make a window for a mosque.

You are, as so often, talking complete non-sense I'm afraid.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 08:42:08 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5038
Re: Angels
« Reply #103 on: November 11, 2015, 10:17:21 AM »
I'm pleased that you have mentioned Gabriel Faure, Prof, because he was - at the time his sublime Requiem was composed - an avowed non-believer.

Not only that, but he was still working as a church organist, playing at La Madeleine - and continued to do so for many years.
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Angels
« Reply #104 on: November 11, 2015, 10:21:32 AM »
I'm pleased that you have mentioned Gabriel Faure, Prof, because he was - at the time his sublime Requiem was composed - an avowed non-believer.

Not only that, but he was still working as a church organist, playing at La Madeleine - and continued to do so for many years.
Vaughan Williams was an organist for a while too.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5038
Re: Angels
« Reply #105 on: November 11, 2015, 10:24:47 AM »

  -  fool.


King James Bible
Matthew 5:22

  ... but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Don't say you haven't been warned ......
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Angels
« Reply #106 on: November 11, 2015, 10:55:59 AM »
I'm pleased that you have mentioned Gabriel Faure, Prof, because he was - at the time his sublime Requiem was composed - an avowed non-believer.

Not only that, but he was still working as a church organist, playing at La Madeleine - and continued to do so for many years.
What BA appears to fail to understand is that all these people are first and foremost professional musicians/composers. That is both their primary passion and also their livelihood.

And as a professional composer it isn't surprising that you may take commissions when and where they arise, but also that you may want, as a professional, to take on the challenge of taking a very well accepted and recognised musical form with extremely rigid rules (don't forget there are a tiny number of words in a standard mass or a requiem mass, plus they are always the same, and in latin) and create something new, different and relevant to the musical community. And the creativity here is entirely musical, as (as I've already indicated) the words are identical in a Haydn mass from the late 18thC and Chilcott's 'A little Jazz mass' of 2009. The distinction and the creativity lie in the music.

In fact many of the current pieces being written are specifically (often on the manuscript) not intended for liturgical worship, but for concert performance. Those two things are entirely different. And add to that the fact that they are in latin, a language very rarely used these days in worship, so they simply aren't suitable for current worship. Add to that the fact that most of these pieces require an orchestra (often relatively small, but an orchestra none the less) and a number of highly competent soloists. How many churches would be able ton rustle up this for their worship - very, very few.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 11:04:16 AM by ProfessorDavey »

floo

  • Guest
Re: Angels
« Reply #107 on: November 11, 2015, 11:23:16 AM »
As a digital artist I have created artwork with a religious theme when asked to do so. I don't have to believe in it, anymore than I have to believe in fairies to create a picture featuring them, if asked.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Angels
« Reply #108 on: November 11, 2015, 11:39:07 AM »
So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
He was probably already on his way, because God will know my prayer before it is said.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Angels
« Reply #109 on: November 11, 2015, 11:50:08 AM »

Still, I suppose angels have to nip to the loo or take phone calls the same as the rest of us, right?
When I attended Mass this morning, one of the readings was about the ten leppers who were cured, but only one returned to thank Jesus, who showed His displeasure at those who did not thank Him.

We take so many of God's gifts for granted, particularly the gift of life.  If we want God to help us through life, we need to show some gratitude for what He has already given us.  There is no point in God intervening if we assume that His miracles are just natural phenomena which would have occurred anyway.  Faith, humility and gratitude are the keys to unlock the power of God's grace.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

  • Guest
Re: Angels
« Reply #110 on: November 11, 2015, 11:52:47 AM »
So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
He was probably already on his way, because God will know my prayer before it is said.

In which case why doesn't the flipping deity get off its lazy backside and do the business without being asked?

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Angels
« Reply #111 on: November 11, 2015, 12:00:10 PM »
As a digital artist I have created artwork with a religious theme when asked to do so. I don't have to believe in it, anymore than I have to believe in fairies to create a picture featuring them, if asked.

On a similar theme, I was in a possition to ask the pianist Jeffery Parsons about his work and I asked him which piece of music was his favorite and he said that he couldn't afford to have any favourites, so very much like you indicate Floo, it's buisness, that's how it is.

ippy

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Angels
« Reply #112 on: November 11, 2015, 12:02:13 PM »

Still, I suppose angels have to nip to the loo or take phone calls the same as the rest of us, right?
When I attended Mass this morning, one of the readings was about the ten leppers who were cured, but only one returned to thank Jesus, who showed His displeasure at those who did not thank Him.

We take so many of God's gifts for granted, particularly the gift of life.  If we want God to help us through life, we need to show some gratitude for what He has already given us.  There is no point in God intervening if we assume that His miracles are just natural phenomena which would have occurred anyway.  Faith, humility and gratitude are the keys to unlock the power of God's grace.

Got to hand it to you Alan, you've got a really vivid immagination.

ippy

floo

  • Guest
Re: Angels
« Reply #113 on: November 11, 2015, 12:11:34 PM »

Still, I suppose angels have to nip to the loo or take phone calls the same as the rest of us, right?
When I attended Mass this morning, one of the readings was about the ten leppers who were cured, but only one returned to thank Jesus, who showed His displeasure at those who did not thank Him.

We take so many of God's gifts for granted, particularly the gift of life.  If we want God to help us through life, we need to show some gratitude for what He has already given us.  There is no point in God intervening if we assume that His miracles are just natural phenomena which would have occurred anyway.  Faith, humility and gratitude are the keys to unlock the power of God's grace.

Got to hand it to you Alan, you've got a really vivid immagination.

ippy

I think it is probably fair to say the people who wrote the documents which make up the Bible had extremely vivid imaginations too.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Angels
« Reply #114 on: November 11, 2015, 12:27:45 PM »
So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
He was probably already on his way, because God will know my prayer before it is said.

Does that only apply to believers like you?

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Angels
« Reply #115 on: November 11, 2015, 12:35:28 PM »

When I attended Mass this morning, one of the readings was about the ten leppers who were cured, but only one returned to thank Jesus, who showed His displeasure at those who did not thank Him.
Graceless of him, wasn't it, but hardly untypical. There are umpteen people, from doctors and nurses to toilet cleaners and bin men, who get on and do their jobs without expecting thanks.
Quote
There is no point in God intervening if we assume that His miracles are just natural phenomena which would have occurred anyway.
That's something that could be easily (in fact effortlessly) remedied by such an entity simply providing unambiguous evidence of its existence instead of hiding behind what gives every appearance of being a godless material world of physical forces and comprehensible laws. What's the problem?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7520
Re: Angels
« Reply #116 on: November 11, 2015, 01:01:09 PM »
So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
He was probably already on his way, because God will know my prayer before it is said.

In which case why...

Ah, the joys of intellectual repartee! 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 01:08:53 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Angels
« Reply #117 on: November 11, 2015, 01:07:14 PM »
So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
He was probably already on his way, because God will know my prayer before it is said.
ah good old omniscience, free will which you support, thrown casually away in that post, you little Calvinist, you. There is only one way for everything to happen with this omniscience.



SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Angels
« Reply #118 on: November 11, 2015, 01:13:09 PM »
Prof Davey #106

A good read - well said!
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Angels
« Reply #119 on: November 11, 2015, 02:37:06 PM »
So if you hadn't prayed the guy/angel wouldn't have shown?
He was probably already on his way, because God will know my prayer before it is said.
ah good old omniscience, free will which you support, thrown casually away in that post, you little Calvinist, you. There is only one way for everything to happen with this omniscience.
God sees the finished canvas which I paint with my free will.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Angels
« Reply #120 on: November 11, 2015, 02:48:54 PM »
If god creates stuff and knows what will happen there is no free will. If there is free will, there is no omniscience. Pick one or the other but maintaining both is logically contradictory, and therefore not even wrong

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Angels
« Reply #121 on: November 11, 2015, 02:53:07 PM »
If god creates stuff and knows what will happen there is no free will. If there is free will, there is no omniscience. Pick one or the other but maintaining both is logically contradictory, and therefore not even wrong
If God exists in a timeless dimension,  He will know the result of our free will action.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Angels
« Reply #122 on: November 11, 2015, 02:54:52 PM »
If my aunt had knackers she'd be my uncle, Alan.

Throwing all these "If this ..." and "If that"s around like confetti does nothing to hide the poverty of your arguments.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 03:02:21 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7520
Re: Angels
« Reply #123 on: November 11, 2015, 03:12:52 PM »

  -  fool.


King James Bible
Matthew 5:22

  ... but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Don't say you haven't been warned ......

Well, to co-opt dear Dave's line:"we're all in this together."
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Angels
« Reply #124 on: November 12, 2015, 02:20:43 PM »
Prof Davey #106

A good read - well said!
There in another angle to this too.

For those that are aficionados of classical music and, in particular, classical singing will understand there are different forms. So a good (if somewhat simplistic) distinction being between operatic and traditional choral singing. Now these are actually different in singing style and professional musicians tend to become proficient in one or the other, but rarely both. The whole tone, technique and sound generated is different. And this is linked not just to basic distinctions but the type of space in which the music is 'designed' to be performed. So an opera house has a completely different design to a church, for example - and I'm talking acoustically, not purpose.

So choral music has always been composed for choral voices that perform in a space that uses its natural reverberation and resonance to augment and enhance the sound generated from the singers. And in most cases that kind of acoustic is to be found in the natural reverberations of traditional church designs (which themselves are designed often with that in mind). So take a top choral singing group, such as the sixteen. They are just about the best around - here them in Kings College Chapel and they are spellbinding - their voices are augmented by the acoustic to fill the space with rich reverberant sound. Take them and put them in a different space - e.g. a Barbican concert hall, which has a completely different acoustic that specifically reduces much of the natural reverberation that you'd get in a church (and is designed for orchestra largely) and although they'll still sound good the richness and fullness of the sound is lost.

So music is composed to be performed in particular types of space and musicians abilities are influence by that space.

Most traditional choral music is composed to be sung in a space with significant reverberation - which is usually a church. It isn't designed to be sung in the much 'drier' acoustic of an opera house or a concert hall. And vice versa - Opera is designed to be sung in an Opera house.

And I think this has had an affect, certainly until recently, on the 'subject' of the choral music. So if you are composing music that will be sung in a church, because that's the place where it sounds best, then likely as not you'll ensure the subject matter is suitable. Indeed until pretty recently many churches wouldn't really countenance the performance of secular choral pieces within their spaces, so frankly there wasn't a great deal of point composing them with no-where for them to be performed. However recently (over the past 40-50 years) there has been a softening of that approach, with churches recognising that they can make money from secular concerts and that insisting that the music must have a sacred theme isn't really tenable. Hence the proliferation of secular choral pieces that have a traditional choral flavour but choose non sacred text.

Interestingly there have been some much earlier 'cross-over' pieces, largely sacred music written by composers more associated with the operatic genre and in an operatic rather than traditional choral style. Perhaps the most famous being the Verdi requiem, which (after a brief initial 'test' performance) received its proper premier in La Scala, an Opera house, and was then performed in similar 'concert or opera' venues in Paris and London. The music is Operatic in nature and works best in an Opera house or concert hall rather than a church.