Corbyn and the military.

[Jack Knave]

Throwing up your hands in the air and simply saying that these issues are "nearly impossible" to deal with sounds like sheer defeatism of the kind usually found amongst those who prefer to do other things with their hands, such as sit on them.

So what do you suggest?

If something is nearly impossible, and that being the truth of the matter, then saying it's not and that one is being defeatist is as delusional as a theist. One has to face the facts of the situation else one ends up in all manner of dung, like the Iraqi war and so on. This belief that we can do anything is usually the preserve of the Left, and the gung-ho Right.

The fact of the matter with Syria is that it is so convoluted that it is beyond the wit of man to deal with directly.

[BashfulAnthony]

So what do you suggest?

If something is nearly impossible, and that being the truth of the matter, then saying it's not and that one is being defeatist is as delusional as a theist. One has to face the facts of the situation else one ends up in all manner of dung, like the Iraqi war and so on. This belief that we can do anything is usually the preserve of the Left, and the gung-ho Right.

The fact of the matter with Syria is that it is so convoluted that it is beyond the wit of man to deal with directly.

Difficult as this is, no political situation is beyond the wit of man to resolve.

[Jack Knave]

I think we all already know that whatever we do to ISIL in Syria/Iraq will not solve anything. The ideology will just spring up everywhere else. Anyone who has looked at it has already stated that the battle is only around 25% military and 75% propaganda. It is the propaganda war that we are losing badly. Though now, following the  terror attacks in Paris, looks like we are going to fall into our usual crap response:

Silences, marches, loads of fine words and brave speeches
Reassure everyone they will be safe as long as they give up more of their rights
Treat the conflict as if it were WWII and bomb the place to bits
Declare that we have won and come home leaving Noddy in charge
Watch multiple offshoot groups spring up and cause more chaos
... repeat

That reminds of Blackadder goes Forth when he tells his boss what the secret plan is that no one is suppose to know.......yes, you're right, more bull squirt rhetoric is on its way......they never learn.

[Jack Knave]

This is a war, but it's not a war for territory or access to resources, it's a war for adherents to ideologies. Shooting or bombing people doesn't change their ideology to ours, it makes no gains, it at best is just wasteful of lives and at worst it actively encourages people to adopt the opposition's mentality.

We need to be convincing, not shooting: no-one accepts a message that's delivered at gun-point, they might or might follow orders and instructions.

We need to be educating, nurturing, building and developing. We have a culture that's worthy, that they oppose from a combination of ignorance and fear, and those are both combatted by exposure.

We need to export our culture, export better ways of life than primitive tribalism and a 'might-makes-right' barbarism so that there is no suppressed, depressed, repressed pool of recruits waiting for something to enthuse them that glorious combat will bring rewards in the next life at the expense of our freedoms and wellbeing in this one.

O.

Our culture? What right have we to impose our ways on them? This is one of the things they hate is our two faced culture!!!

[Jack Knave]

Yes, no one has a vision of what a settlement would look like. Can't imagine that an allied France and Russia would achieve anything stable either.

What about splitting Syria up. Assad seems to be only interested in the western sector of Syria so the democratic others can have the other half?

[Jack Knave]

Difficult as this is, no political situation is beyond the wit of man to resolve.

Well, yes there are, and this is more than politics. Often things resolve themselves not because of the great planning of man but just the way they sometimes fizzle out over the generations after much pain and grief.

[BashfulAnthony]

Well, yes there are, and this is more than politics. Often things resolve themselves not because of the great planning of man but just the way they sometimes fizzle out over the generations after much pain and grief.

I think these differences between Sunni and Shia are pretty deep-rooted, going back I think to the days of Muhammad;  but the presence of the maniac Daesh makes the situation incredibly complex.

[Nearly Sane]

Well, yes there are, and this is more than politics. Often things resolve themselves not because of the great planning of man but just the way they sometimes fizzle out over the generations after much pain and grief.

I agree that it isn't necessarily achieved by huge plans but that doesn't mean that small changes cannot be made and achieved.

[Jack Knave]

I think these differences between Sunni and Shia are pretty deep-rooted, going back I think to the days of Muhammad;  but the presence of the maniac Daesh makes the situation incredibly complex.

So you are agreeing with me.....?

[BashfulAnthony]

So you are agreeing with me.....?

Up to a point, yes. The situation in Syria was not urgent until the so-called Arab Spring.  Things seem to have settled down as you suggested they do;  but the civil war that developed, and the advent of Daesh, has brought it all back to the surface.

[Jack Knave]

Up to a point, yes. The situation in Syria was not urgent until the so-called Arab Spring.  Things seem to have settled down as you suggested they do;  but the civil war that developed, and the advent of Daesh, has brought it all back to the surface.

See, this is why not including the other back posts, or at least a couple few back, results in people replying to things one didn't say.

Highlighted bit: I think someone else implied this not me.

[BashfulAnthony]

See, this is why not including the other back posts, or at least a couple few back, results in people replying to things one didn't say.

Highlighted bit: I think someone else implied this not me.

Actually, I was referring to when you said "sometimes things fizzle out,"  which I agreed with, until the Arab Spring erupted and brought all the old enmities back to the surface.

[Jack Knave]

I agree that it isn't necessarily achieved by huge plans but that doesn't mean that small changes cannot be made and achieved.

It is a fact that one day this will all blow over and become part of history but having a solution that takes 10, 20 years can't be considered as a solution. That is my point. The solution, that can be named as such, that is required is one that can be achieved in say a year or two or even less. Anything less than this isn't acceptable as a bona fide resolution of the situation for the desperate Syrian people, the self serving trade deals of the West that have impoverished these MENA countries and the way the West has supported dictators in these regions, and the mayhem that is swarming the European shores. This is why I say that there is no real solution.

A 10,20 plus year solution will only leave the residue of the bitterness that is in these countries towards the West to fester further and as we have seen in Europe's history deep wounds take many generations to subside to mere rhetorical gesturing.

[Jack Knave]

Actually, I was referring to when you said "sometimes things fizzle out,"  which I agreed with, until the Arab Spring erupted and brought all the old enmities back to the surface.

I was referring to the future when all this becomes part of history.

[jeremyp]

I suggest boots on the ground, as I can't think of another solution.  Maybe it would work, maybe not.  Perhaps somebody can think of something better?

Boots on the ground is not a solution, it's an escalation.

Not doing anything at all would be better than meeting violence with violence.

You may think killing a few ISIS members evens up the score but, if you do, you have got the sides wrong. It wouldn't be Isis 1, The West 1, but violence 2, reason 0.

[Outrider]

Our culture? What right have we to impose our ways on them? This is one of the things they hate is our two faced culture!!!

What right? The fact that our's is better - people are happier, they are more free, they live longer, healthier lives, the basic standard of living is significantly better by cultural design.

There's a reason the ISIS/fundamentalist Islamic culture is viewed as barbaric - because it's barbaric.

Western culture has a long tradition of absorbing and recycling aesthetic elements from different cultures, the history of these places wouldn't be eradicated, necessarily, unless everyone decided that they no longer cared.

O.

[Outrider]

What about splitting Syria up. Assad seems to be only interested in the western sector of Syria so the democratic others can have the other half?

And who do you condemn, in that process, to live under Assad? Have you not seen what partitioning post-war Palestine has resulted in? Or, to a lesser extent, colonial-era India?

O.

[Outrider]

It is a fact that one day this will all blow over and become part of history but having a solution that takes 10, 20 years can't be considered as a solution. That is my point. The solution, that can be named as such, that is required is one that can be achieved in say a year or two or even less.

You aren't going to be able to resolve those sorts of issues in that sort of time-frame - that's just not realistic. Look at the Northern Ireland situation - relatively peaceful since the late 1990's, but still simmering resentments and long-festering mistrust mean that it's a fragile arrangement. Children growing up now, though, who've only known that broad peace, will foster a more stable future, and their children raised without the overt hostility will be a little more peaceful. This is how cultural change works, you can't 'enforce' it.

Anything less than this isn't acceptable as a bona fide resolution of the situation for the desperate Syrian people, the self serving trade deals of the West that have impoverished these MENA countries and the way the West has supported dictators in these regions, and the mayhem that is swarming the European shores. This is why I say that there is no real solution.

There are solutions, but they will always involve compromise and time. The first step has to involve isolating terrorists - whether state-operated like the Assad regime, or independent like ISIS - from their funding and support mechanisms to drive them to the negotiating table, and then build something rather than sending in bombs to destroy.

A 10,20 plus year solution will only leave the residue of the bitterness that is in these countries towards the West to fester further and as we have seen in Europe's history deep wounds take many generations to subside to mere rhetorical gesturing.

Whereas people who hate the West now aren't going to forget just because they've been under the threat of Western bombs for three years. How did that work in Afghanistan, or Iraq?

O.

[Spud]

This is a war, but it's not a war for territory or access to resources, it's a war for adherents to ideologies. Shooting or bombing people doesn't change their ideology to ours, it makes no gains, it at best is just wasteful of lives and at worst it actively encourages people to adopt the opposition's mentality.

We need to be convincing, not shooting: no-one accepts a message that's delivered at gun-point, they might or might follow orders and instructions.

We need to be educating, nurturing, building and developing. We have a culture that's worthy, that they oppose from a combination of ignorance and fear, and those are both combatted by exposure.

We need to export our culture, export better ways of life than primitive tribalism and a 'might-makes-right' barbarism so that there is no suppressed, depressed, repressed pool of recruits waiting for something to enthuse them that glorious combat will bring rewards in the next life at the expense of our freedoms and wellbeing in this one.

O.

I fear that the only way to defeat Islamic extremism in the West is for our atheistic society to convert back to Christianity.

[Nearly Sane]

I fear that the only way to defeat Islamic extremism in the West is for our atheistic society to convert back to Christianity.

This week Marty and the Doc use the DeLorean to go Back to the Crusades

[Spud]

I suggest this because at a service at the local war memorial on Remembrance Day, you had not just Christians but non-Christians, saying the Lord's Prayer, singing hymns etc, and one got the feeling of an unequalled strength in that.

[Nearly Sane]

I suggest this because at a service at the local war memorial on Remembrance Day, you had not just Christians but non-Christians, saying the Lord's Prayer, singing hymns etc, and one got the feeling of an unequalled strength in that.

You know what at mine, we even had Muslims!

[Shaker]

I suggest this because at a service at the local war memorial on Remembrance Day, you had not just Christians but non-Christians, saying the Lord's Prayer, singing hymns etc, and one got the feeling of an unequalled strength in that.

That's done for the sake of form, for the collective ritual, not because the non-believers believe in any of it (otherwise they wouldn't be non-believers).

Aided and abetted by the fact that explicitly non-religious organisations/groups are actively prohibited from taking part in Remembrance Day, of course.

[Spud]

Muslim extremists will never respect atheists.

[Shaker]

Muslim extremists will never respect atheists.

Yes. And? Do you think they respect Christians more?