Corbyn and the military.

[Nearly Sane]

And as posted previously, obviously Hitler and Germany was totally controlled by the Grand Mufti. There were, in fact, no Christians in Germany during either of the World Wars, the Germans all being some form of pagans or Muslims who liked incense. As for the Italians, well they're Catholics and are working with the Muslims to bring in the New World Order on behalf of the Illuminati.


(think I am past Irony, and even coppery here, at the very least think now zincy)

[Nearly Sane]

Muslim extremists will never respect atheists.

I was reading elsewhere a quote from a lovely Christian chappie saying that there was Team Jesus and team Satan, and that all of those who weren't Christian were on Team Satan. Are you the nice thug, offering protection, as opposed to his nasty thug?

[Nearly Sane]

Muslim extremists will never respect atheists.

They don't even respect other Muslims, please stop with your protection scheme posts.

[Outrider]

I fear that the only way to defeat Islamic extremism in the West is for our atheistic society to convert back to Christianity.

How is it that you think reverting to an equally baseless superstition will 'defeat' their baseless superstition?

If you'd said converting them you might have had a slight point - not a snowflake in hell's chance, but a point.

Rather than lowering ourselves to their level, why not maintain our more civilised and cultured position and try to raise them up to it?

O.

[Outrider]

I suggest this because at a service at the local war memorial on Remembrance Day, you had not just Christians but non-Christians, saying the Lord's Prayer, singing hymns etc, and one got the feeling of an unequalled strength in that.

Ah, song-warfare... Good grief.

Firstly, did anyone else get this sense of unparalleled strength or just you? Just other believers?

Second, what would you do with that 'unequalled strength'? We don't need any more strength, we could nuke the entire Arab world the required three feet necessary to take ISIS back to the Dark Ages their philosophy comes from. A lack of strength isn't our problem.

Thirdly, why would more Christians make a difference? Do you honestly think the bulk of the poorly educated adherents of Islamic Fundamentalism differentiate between the various non-Islamic faith positions? They don't even appreciate common ground with other adherents of Islam.

O.

[Outrider]

And as posted previously, obviously Hitler and Germany was totally controlled by the Grand Mufti. There were, in fact, no Christians in Germany during either of the World Wars, the Germans all being some form of pagans or Muslims who liked incense. As for the Italians, well they're Catholics and are working with the Muslims to bring in the New World Order on behalf of the Illuminati.


(think I am past Irony, and even coppery here, at the very least think now zincy)

I think 'Berylliumy' (pronounced 'barmy')...

O.

[BashfulAnthony]

Boots on the ground is not a solution, it's an escalation.

Not doing anything at all would be better than meeting violence with violence.

You may think killing a few ISIS members evens up the score but, if you do, you have got the sides wrong. It wouldn't be Isis 1, The West 1, but violence 2, reason 0.

We should learn from history.    We thought Hitler would "go away" if we left him to it.  That appeasement caused thousands more lives than might have been the case if we had acted sooner.  Nobody wants violence  (except Daesh), but how else are their deprivations to be halted?  Leave them, and they will multiply. Talk to them?   That is pure pie in the sky. 

[Nearly Sane]

We should learn from history.    We thought Hitler would "go away" if we left him to it.  That appeasement caused thousands more lives than might have been the case if we had acted sooner.  Nobody wants violence  (except Daesh), but how else are their deprivations to be halted?  Leave them, and they will multiply. Talk to them?   That is pure pie in the sky.

and we thought invading Iraq would reduce terrorism. History is a teeny tiny tad more complex in its lessons.

[BashfulAnthony]

and we thought invading Iraq would reduce terrorism. History is a teeny tiny tad more complex in its lessons.

Even Blair admitted that we had not thought through what would happen in Iraq once Saddam was gone. It is surely not beyond the wit of the combined brains of all the Western Powers to come up with something viable.

[Nearly Sane]

Even Blair admitted that we had not thought through what would happen in Iraq once Saddam was gone. It is surely not beyond the wit of the combined brains of all the Western Powers to come up with something viable.

Has admitted but not at the time? So tell me how you know that bombing, invasion works given the failure admitted? You were the one talking about learning from history but now you are saying that the actions you are proposing have been admitted to not working but that's ok because you will do something different. Good, what is it? Tell me how you will justify the deaths involved in what you propose?

[BashfulAnthony]

Has admitted but not at the time? So tell me how you know that bombing, invasion works given the failure admitted? You were the one talking about learning from history but now you are saying that the actions you are proposing have been admitted to not working but that's ok because you will do something different. Good, what is it? Tell me how you will justify the deaths involved in what you propose?

I am not actually proposing anything;  I said it ought not to be beyond the wit of the combined brains of the Western Powers to come up with something.  I'm a real clever fella:  but I'm not amongst the great brains of the West.  Seriously, it is difficult to see how bloodshed can be avoided, and sure as heck, sitting doing nothing and hoping it will go away, won't achieve anything.

[Nearly Sane]

I am not actually proposing anything;  I said it ought not to be beyond the wit of the combined brains of the Western Powers to come up with something.  I'm a real clever fella:  but I'm not amongst the great brains of the West.  Seriously, it is difficult to see how bloodshed can be avoided, and sure as heck, sitting doing nothing and hoping it will go away, won't achieve anything.

you proposed boots on the ground

[BashfulAnthony]

you proposed boots on the ground

I was suggesting that was probably the inevitable course:  I did not say I thought it was something to be happy about.

[Outrider]

We should learn from history.    We thought Hitler would "go away" if we left him to it.  That appeasement caused thousands more lives than might have been the case if we had acted sooner.  Nobody wants violence  (except Daesh), but how else are their deprivations to be halted?  Leave them, and they will multiply. Talk to them?   That is pure pie in the sky.

We should, indeed, learn from history: we sent troops into Iraq and Afghanistan, and look how that turned out.

One of the things we should learn from history is that different conflicts and different times have different goals. Hitler's Germany called for racial purity, but worked for European territory to secure itself from military intervention.

ISIS/Al Quaeda's call is for a world-wide Islamic state, but it is working to secure oil for financing, people as a human shield and ideological security by information isolation.

Their methodologies are dictated by their goals, which means the way to counter them is different as well.

O.

[Udayana]

I am not actually proposing anything;  I said it ought not to be beyond the wit of the combined brains of the Western Powers to come up with something.  I'm a real clever fella:  but I'm not amongst the great brains of the West.  Seriously, it is difficult to see how bloodshed can be avoided, and sure as heck, sitting doing nothing and hoping it will go away, won't achieve anything.

It certainly seems to be beyond the "combined brains of the Western Powers", as they have been addled by an addiction to oil and weapons sales. Anyway, they've all been snookered by Putin acting for Assad.

[Spud]

They don't even respect other Muslims, please stop with your protection scheme posts.

Well apparently the people they have least respect for are young non-muslim people attending a heavy metal concert.

[Spud]

and we thought invading Iraq would reduce terrorism.

It did until we pulled out, leaving a weak Iraqi army in charge of a shed load of weapons, which ISIS pounced on. Isn't that the lesson we should be learning?

[jeremyp]

We should learn from history.    We thought Hitler would "go away" if we left him to it.

It should be bleeding obvious to you that Hitler and ISIS represent very different challenges.

That appeasement caused thousands more lives than might have been the case if we had acted sooner.  Nobody wants violence  (except Daesh), but how else are their deprivations to be halted?  Leave them, and they will multiply. Talk to them?   That is pure pie in the sky.

Actually, we have been doing violence against them for years now. It's pretty obviously not working.

[wigginhall]

For as long as I can remember, the West has thought of 'solutions' to the Arab and Middle East world.  And the solutions have often become disasters - for example, Suez, or the overthrow of the Iranian govt (1953), replaced by the Shah.

It's some kind of addiction, although I suppose it stems from colonial times.

Thus, we had a solution to Iraq, but the solution turned out to be a disaster.   Now, we are looking for solutions to Syria, and jihadists are licking their lips. 

[Spud]

I think there is a solution. If we want to trade with the middle east, we need to have permanent military bases out there.

[Outrider]

I think there is a solution. If we want to trade with the middle east, we need to have permanent military bases out there.

Unfortunately we need their oil more than they need our military bases...

O.

[Spud]

Unfortunately we need their oil more than they need our military bases...

O.

We do pay them for their oil, though? Do they not need money- you know, to buy stuff ?

[Jack Knave]

What right? The fact that our's is better - people are happier, they are more free, they live longer, healthier lives, the basic standard of living is significantly better by cultural design.

There's a reason the ISIS/fundamentalist Islamic culture is viewed as barbaric - because it's barbaric.

Western culture has a long tradition of absorbing and recycling aesthetic elements from different cultures, the history of these places wouldn't be eradicated, necessarily, unless everyone decided that they no longer cared.

O.

But people don't think like that about their lives and culture it is more of an emotional, intuitive response to things. And even so you have no right to impose what you think is right in cultural terms on others.

[Jack Knave]

And who do you condemn, in that process, to live under Assad? Have you not seen what partitioning post-war Palestine has resulted in? Or, to a lesser extent, colonial-era India?

O.

Tricky....

What's your solution?

[Jack Knave]

You aren't going to be able to resolve those sorts of issues in that sort of time-frame - that's just not realistic. Look at the Northern Ireland situation - relatively peaceful since the late 1990's, but still simmering resentments and long-festering mistrust mean that it's a fragile arrangement. Children growing up now, though, who've only known that broad peace, will foster a more stable future, and their children raised without the overt hostility will be a little more peaceful. This is how cultural change works, you can't 'enforce' it.

So you agree with me on another post we have engaged on?!!

These people have a different mindset. NI came to ahead because both sides saw neither could win. ISIS etc. blow themselves up for their cause. I can't see them coming to the point where they acknowledge their endeavours are futile any decade soon. And the longer the West mess things up with their arrogance the more this will fuel things and with guns and what not freely available throughout the MENA there is not a lot that is going to stop them.

There are solutions, but they will always involve compromise and time. The first step has to involve isolating terrorists - whether state-operated like the Assad regime, or independent like ISIS - from their funding and support mechanisms to drive them to the negotiating table, and then build something rather than sending in bombs to destroy.

Frustrate their funding? How? There are some very rich and powerful people behind that funding. And Assad has Russia behind him and/or this Syrian regime. Not easy to stop that.

Whereas people who hate the West now aren't going to forget just because they've been under the threat of Western bombs for three years. How did that work in Afghanistan, or Iraq?

Not too sure how that addresses my point or what you are actually saying. It vaguely seems to be agreeing with me?