Author Topic: Ontological Argument.......Really?  (Read 35643 times)

Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2015, 10:38:44 AM »
Expertise in theology? Oh, very good. Tell us another one  :D

I was referring to your lack of expertise; I don't know what you thought.  I suppose it's getting late for you. Dropping off, are you?  Try and follow, or go to beddy byes.     :)

"Blankets, unlike theology, serve a purpose and are actually useful."  That inanity nicely demonstrates what I said:  your total lack of expertise, and inability to make a positive comment, only the repetitive denunciation.

The argument from authority is a logical fallacy to start with, but when in an areas where the very concept of authority is questionable - theology - it's doubly so. You can be an expert on the history of theology - who made up what, when -  but theology itself is merely spouting on conjecture about hypothetical maybes.

O.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 10:59:35 AM by Outrider »
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2015, 10:40:35 AM »
Expertise in theology? Oh, very good. Tell us another one  :D

I was referring to your lack of expertise; I don't know what you thought.  I suppose it's getting late for you. Dropping off, are you?  Try and follow, or go to beddy byes.     :)

"Blankets, unlike theology, serve a purpose and are actually useful."  That inanity nicely demonstrates what I said:  your total lack of expertise, and inability to make a positive comment, only the repetitive denunciation. 

The argument from authority is a logical fallacy to start with, but when in an areas where the very concept of authority is questionable - theology - it's doubly so. You can be an expert on the history of theology - who made up what, when -  but theology itself is merely spouting on conjecture about hypothetical maybes.

O.

Why "spouting?"  Can't you show any respect for the views of others?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 09:45:46 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

floo

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #77 on: November 14, 2015, 10:40:45 AM »

I'm not under cross-examination, by you, or anyone.
A perfect illustration and example of my point.
Quote
Perhaps you could ask Floo to help you out:  she's read the Bible many times; though at present she's busting a gasket   -  she seems to be taking a leaf out of your book with her obscenities.
Which obscenities might these be?

Did she go and say 'bum' again, Bashers?

I haven't used any obscenities. ::)

Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #78 on: November 14, 2015, 10:54:32 AM »
Expertise in theology? Oh, very good. Tell us another one  :D

I was referring to your lack of expertise; I don't know what you thought.  I suppose it's getting late for you. Dropping off, are you?  Try and follow, or go to beddy byes.     :)

"Blankets, unlike theology, serve a purpose and are actually useful."  That inanity nicely demonstrates what I said:  your total lack of expertise, and inability to make a positive comment, only the repetitive denunciation. 

The argument from authority is a logical fallacy to start with, but when in an areas where the very concept of authority is questionable - theology - it's doubly so. You can be an expert on the history of theology - who made up what, when -  but theology itself is merely spouting on conjecture about hypothetical maybes.

O.

Wjy "spouting?"  Can't you show any respect for the views of others?
I respect your right to it, but how I can give it any respect - it's a field based on absolutely nothing. Profound statements based on attempting to apply tortuous logic to a fundemantally undemonstrated conjecture. You can't say anything with any authority because there's no firm foundation on which to base anything.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #79 on: November 14, 2015, 10:56:30 AM »
If you want to know about Almighty God the best person to ask is Jesus Christ. He portrayed him and told us everything we need to know,...This being that God is the figure-head of all universal knowledge...mainly because he is the living voice of all that energy, all that science, and all that creativity...This is why he is known as an All Knowing God...and why we are invited to share in all that knowledge.

That's lovely, I have a copy of his rather inventive manifesto statement, complete with all the supernatural trimmings, but could you tell me when his constituency hours start? I'd like to talk to him about some his claims, but he doesn't seem to answer...

O.

Reply #15 covers it adequately Outrider.

You think?

"You are so busy condemning rather than listening Floo that you pass right over Almighty God's Wi-Fi connection. It is set up by Jesus Christ who tells us that unless we try and follow him as accurately as possible we will never contact God. Now, if we follow that instruction we find that we must put on meekness and meekness is similar to the electric attitude of 'lilies in the valley' and this is the wave-length that Almighty God...Jesus Christ...every sincere Christian, and all life, finds the most rewarding because it gives us God's finest reward being a righteous attachment to God's 'love'...'dynamic energy'...'fountain of living waters'."

That's, essentially, a claim that you don't have to justify the claim: if you don't accept it that's your fault, and if you do accept it you'll only know the truth for sure after your dead when you can no longer communicate that fact back. There's convenient.

It's an untestable claim, and therefore just an assertion which can be dismissed as you've not made your case.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #80 on: November 14, 2015, 10:59:00 AM »
What about the questions asked of you guys?

No amount of us answering questions will change the fact that the fundamental burden of proof remains on those making the claim. You assert 'god(s)'; we say 'prove it'.

Quote
I've answered all your questions and will do again but for the time being this should be enough to keep anyone going......There is knowledge that only you can know yourself i.e that you are conscious of your own existence in a way no one else can be. Having established that then other similar types of knowledge, the existence of god for example are possible.

No. The point of, say, Descartes and 'I think therefore I am' is that it establishes some knowledge is not gathered from outside, via the senses, but can be deduced from internal evidence. God is not internal, and any deduction must be based on knowledge supplied by sensory evidence. It is, therefore, subjective and needs to be verified in some way.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #81 on: November 14, 2015, 10:59:53 AM »
If you want to know about Almighty God the best person to ask is Jesus Christ. He portrayed him and told us everything we need to know,...This being that God is the figure-head of all universal knowledge...mainly because he is the living voice of all that energy, all that science, and all that creativity...This is why he is known as an All Knowing God...and why we are invited to share in all that knowledge.

That's lovely, I have a copy of his rather inventive manifesto statement, complete with all the supernatural trimmings, but could you tell me when his constituency hours start? I'd like to talk to him about some his claims, but he doesn't seem to answer...

O.

Reply #15 covers it adequately Outrider.

You think?

"You are so busy condemning rather than listening Floo that you pass right over Almighty God's Wi-Fi connection. It is set up by Jesus Christ who tells us that unless we try and follow him as accurately as possible we will never contact God. Now, if we follow that instruction we find that we must put on meekness and meekness is similar to the electric attitude of 'lilies in the valley' and this is the wave-length that Almighty God...Jesus Christ...every sincere Christian, and all life, finds the most rewarding because it gives us God's finest reward being a righteous attachment to God's 'love'...'dynamic energy'...'fountain of living waters'."

That's, essentially, a claim that you don't have to justify the claim: if you don't accept it that's your fault, and if you do accept it you'll only know the truth for sure after your dead when you can no longer communicate that fact back. There's convenient.

It's an untestable claim, and therefore just an assertion which can be dismissed as you've not made your case.

O.
Naturalism is an untestable claim as you know.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #82 on: November 14, 2015, 11:01:19 AM »
What about the questions asked of you guys?

No amount of us answering questions will change the fact that the fundamental burden of proof remains on those making the claim. You assert 'god(s)'; we say 'prove it'.


No amount of us answering questions will change the fact that the fundamental burden of proof remains on those making the claim. You assert 'Naturalism'; we say 'prove it'.

Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #83 on: November 14, 2015, 11:14:16 AM »
What about the questions asked of you guys?

No amount of us answering questions will change the fact that the fundamental burden of proof remains on those making the claim. You assert 'god(s)'; we say 'prove it'.


No amount of us answering questions will change the fact that the fundamental burden of proof remains on those making the claim. You assert 'Naturalism'; we say 'prove it'.

No, we claim a methodology that gives provisional explanations. Science doesn't prove anything, I'm pretty sure we've mentioned this before.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #84 on: November 14, 2015, 11:17:15 AM »
If you want to know about Almighty God the best person to ask is Jesus Christ. He portrayed him and told us everything we need to know,...This being that God is the figure-head of all universal knowledge...mainly because he is the living voice of all that energy, all that science, and all that creativity...This is why he is known as an All Knowing God...and why we are invited to share in all that knowledge.

That's lovely, I have a copy of his rather inventive manifesto statement, complete with all the supernatural trimmings, but could you tell me when his constituency hours start? I'd like to talk to him about some his claims, but he doesn't seem to answer...

O.

Reply #15 covers it adequately Outrider.

You think?

"You are so busy condemning rather than listening Floo that you pass right over Almighty God's Wi-Fi connection. It is set up by Jesus Christ who tells us that unless we try and follow him as accurately as possible we will never contact God. Now, if we follow that instruction we find that we must put on meekness and meekness is similar to the electric attitude of 'lilies in the valley' and this is the wave-length that Almighty God...Jesus Christ...every sincere Christian, and all life, finds the most rewarding because it gives us God's finest reward being a righteous attachment to God's 'love'...'dynamic energy'...'fountain of living waters'."

That's, essentially, a claim that you don't have to justify the claim: if you don't accept it that's your fault, and if you do accept it you'll only know the truth for sure after your dead when you can no longer communicate that fact back. There's convenient.

It's an untestable claim, and therefore just an assertion which can be dismissed as you've not made your case.

O.
Naturalism is an untestable claim as you know.

Our experience is subjective. All claims are ultimately untestable, or resting on unverifiable assumptions. All knowledge devolves to the sollypsism. In practical terms, though, we appear to collaborate in a consistent, physical world. Even if the things we learn are only valid in that appearance of reality, that's a frameowork in which we have reason to claim their validity. Religious claims, by contrast, don't have that.

Yes naturalism is an assumption, but it's an open one, and the deductions that follow from it continue to justify it. Religion, on the other hand, stands as an untestable assertion.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Shaker

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #85 on: November 14, 2015, 11:25:18 AM »
No amount of us answering questions will change the fact that the fundamental burden of proof remains on those making the claim. You assert 'Naturalism'; we say 'prove it'.
Nope. The proof bit has been covered already; what I would add is that naturalism is a tentative, in fact conservative conclusion justified by a methodology with a proven track record of success in consistently serving up reliable knowledge of the nature of the world. If you want to make claims outside that, that's when we start asking interesting questions about the existence and nature of the methodology you propose to use - questions which are, without exception, continually deflected and dodged and just plain old ignored.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #86 on: November 14, 2015, 11:40:14 AM »
No amount of us answering questions will change the fact that the fundamental burden of proof remains on those making the claim. You assert 'Naturalism'; we say 'prove it'.
Nope. The proof bit has been covered already; what I would add is that naturalism is a tentative, in fact conservative conclusion justified by a methodology with a proven track record of success in consistently serving up reliable knowledge of the nature of the world. If you want to make claims outside that, that's when we start asking interesting questions about the existence and nature of the methodology you propose to use - questions which are, without exception, continually deflected and dodged and just plain old ignored.
or put more honestly nature just looking at itself, explaining itself in it's own terms and making a punt that this is all there is. Naturalists being people sliding serrupticiously from a method to a philosophy hoping no one notices.

That the methodology works on nature doesn't help you out in anyway.

Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #87 on: November 14, 2015, 11:49:15 AM »
No amount of us answering questions will change the fact that the fundamental burden of proof remains on those making the claim. You assert 'Naturalism'; we say 'prove it'.
Nope. The proof bit has been covered already; what I would add is that naturalism is a tentative, in fact conservative conclusion justified by a methodology with a proven track record of success in consistently serving up reliable knowledge of the nature of the world. If you want to make claims outside that, that's when we start asking interesting questions about the existence and nature of the methodology you propose to use - questions which are, without exception, continually deflected and dodged and just plain old ignored.
or put more honestly nature just looking at itself, explaining itself in it's own terms and making a punt that this is all there is. Naturalists being people sliding serrupticiously from a method to a philosophy hoping no one notices.

That the methodology works on nature doesn't help you out in anyway.

No, naturalism works on refining our understanding of nature, and the continued accuracy of the scientific method in predicting future discoveries validates the idea. It has nothing to say on whether there's anything else anywhere else, but unfortunately for you neither do you.

If you want to justify claims of spirits, gods, afterlives, souls and what-not you need more than just assertions, you need a methodology with openly stated and accepted limitations.

So far, it seems, you don't have that.

O.
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New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #88 on: November 14, 2015, 12:06:13 PM »
It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that The Invisible Pink Unicorn is a being than which none Pinker can be imagined (that is, the Pinkest possible being that can be imagined)
Except anything that isn't invisible and even the vaguest shade of pink.

Sorry Jezzer but Dulux fucked your argument decades ago.
:-[
Ooh you naughty boy!

Lucky for you that BA seems to have missed this post otherwise he would have been all over you like a bad rash.
Possibly posting something like this to you?

  You are nothing but a foul-mouthed, pretentious hypocrite.  I wonder if you talk like this to family and friends, or whether you are just one of those Walter Mitty saddos who lives his life out on the Internet?   This is not abuse, but a considered evaluation of your behaviour.

or maybe

You have no control and only a sparse vocabulary.

or

I'm merely pointing out how disreputable your language is.

or even;

you are a very immature and foul-mouthed old guy.  Go and wash your mouth out with carbolic soap.   :D


I'm sure that it is nothing other than a rare oversight on his part and nothing to do with the fact that you are not an atheist!  ::)  :-\

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
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floo

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #89 on: November 14, 2015, 12:43:00 PM »
It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that The Invisible Pink Unicorn is a being than which none Pinker can be imagined (that is, the Pinkest possible being that can be imagined)
Except anything that isn't invisible and even the vaguest shade of pink.

Sorry Jezzer but Dulux fucked your argument decades ago.
:-[
Ooh you naughty boy!

Lucky for you that BA seems to have missed this post otherwise he would have been all over you like a bad rash.
Possibly posting something like this to you?

  You are nothing but a foul-mouthed, pretentious hypocrite.  I wonder if you talk like this to family and friends, or whether you are just one of those Walter Mitty saddos who lives his life out on the Internet?   This is not abuse, but a considered evaluation of your behaviour.

or maybe

You have no control and only a sparse vocabulary.

or

I'm merely pointing out how disreputable your language is.

or even;

you are a very immature and foul-mouthed old guy.  Go and wash your mouth out with carbolic soap.   :D


I'm sure that it is nothing other than a rare oversight on his part and nothing to do with the fact that you are not an atheist!  ::)  :-\

 ;D ;D ;D

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #90 on: November 14, 2015, 01:20:55 PM »
No amount of us answering questions will change the fact that the fundamental burden of proof remains on those making the claim. You assert 'Naturalism'; we say 'prove it'.
Nope. The proof bit has been covered already; what I would add is that naturalism is a tentative, in fact conservative conclusion justified by a methodology with a proven track record of success in consistently serving up reliable knowledge of the nature of the world. If you want to make claims outside that, that's when we start asking interesting questions about the existence and nature of the methodology you propose to use - questions which are, without exception, continually deflected and dodged and just plain old ignored.
or put more honestly nature just looking at itself, explaining itself in it's own terms and making a punt that this is all there is. Naturalists being people sliding serrupticiously from a method to a philosophy hoping no one notices.

That the methodology works on nature doesn't help you out in anyway.

No, naturalism works on refining our understanding of nature, and the continued accuracy of the scientific method in predicting future discoveries validates the idea.
O.
And that's it....not whatever else you are dishonestly trying to gussie it up into.

Red Giant

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #91 on: November 14, 2015, 02:54:57 PM »
What about the questions asked of you guys?

No amount of us answering questions will change the fact that the fundamental burden of proof remains on those making the claim. You assert 'god(s)'; we say 'prove it'.


No amount of us answering questions will change the fact that the fundamental burden of proof remains on those making the claim. You assert 'Naturalism'; we say 'prove it'.
i don't say naturalism.  I don't know what it is.  You come up with something and I don't care how supernatural it is, whatever that means.

Just define your terms and avoid oxymorons like "fully God and fully man" and remember death is irreversible by definition.

jeremyp

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #92 on: November 14, 2015, 03:58:01 PM »
#52?

Are we talking about the same post? There are no obscenities in it.

I'm referring to "God's Love,"  M37

God's love is an obscenity?

Yes. A God that condemns people to death for not kow-towing to his son; a god that requires you to be complicit in his son's execution - that god's love is certainly an obscenity.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #93 on: November 14, 2015, 05:13:04 PM »
#52?

Are we talking about the same post? There are no obscenities in it.

I'm referring to "God's Love,"  M37

God's love is an obscenity?

Yes. A God that condemns people to death for not kow-towing to his son; a god that requires you to be complicit in his son's execution - that god's love is certainly an obscenity.
But Jeremy. You need to consider whether, as scripture says, you are crucifying Christ all over again on a daily basis.
Only you and he knows that.

Shaker

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #94 on: November 14, 2015, 05:15:15 PM »
Pretty sure only one does.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

jeremyp

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #95 on: November 14, 2015, 05:38:37 PM »

But Jeremy. You need to consider whether, as scripture says, you are crucifying Christ all over again on a daily basis.
Only you and he knows that.

I'm completely certain that I've never crucified anybody in my life.

I'm also completely certain that Jesus is dead and doesn't care if people are still crucifying what's left of him.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #96 on: November 14, 2015, 05:46:16 PM »
Pretty sure only one does.
Fingers crossed.

Shaker

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Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Jack Knave

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2015, 07:14:46 PM »
I'm reading a book that was written in the late 80's and it states that this argument is still alive and kicking and philosophers, though they feel it is wrong, can't put their finger on it.

Is this so? I find this hard to believe!!!

And are there any Christians (or anyone else, but it was posited by a Christian) who still use this in their argument for the claim for the existence of God?

I reckon I can blow this argument out of the water for good.

If you want to know about Almighty God the best person to ask is Jesus Christ. He portrayed him and told us everything we need to know,...This being that God is the figure-head of all universal knowledge...mainly because he is the living voice of all that energy, all that science, and all that creativity...This is why he is known as an All Knowing God...and why we are invited to share in all that knowledge.

Do you have the home address/telephone number/e-mail/facebook/twitter accounts for Jesus? He must have updated as the prayer line is defunct! ;D ;D ;D

You are so busy condemning rather than listening Floo that you pass right over Almighty God's Wi-Fi connection. It is set up by Jesus Christ who tells us that unless we try and follow him as accurately as possible we will never contact God. Now, if we follow that instruction we find that we must put on meekness and meekness is similar to the electric attitude of 'lilies in the valley' and this is the wave-length that Almighty God...Jesus Christ...every sincere Christian, and all life, finds the most rewarding because it gives us God's finest reward being a righteous attachment to God's 'love'...'dynamic energy'...'fountain of living waters'.

Listening to whom? I have read the Bible many times and the nicey, nicey deity of your vivid imagination is not featured in it

The quite staggering repetition of your ignorance is almost beyond description.  You have never read the Bible many times:  if you had you would realise that the love shown by Our Lord shines through.  Shame on you for your deceit!!
Bashy, love doesn't come from a page. If you think that your life must be very sad!!!

Jack Knave

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2015, 07:48:20 PM »
No amount of us answering questions will change the fact that the fundamental burden of proof remains on those making the claim. You assert 'Naturalism'; we say 'prove it'.
Nope. The proof bit has been covered already; what I would add is that naturalism is a tentative, in fact conservative conclusion justified by a methodology with a proven track record of success in consistently serving up reliable knowledge of the nature of the world. If you want to make claims outside that, that's when we start asking interesting questions about the existence and nature of the methodology you propose to use - questions which are, without exception, continually deflected and dodged and just plain old ignored.
or put more honestly nature just looking at itself, explaining itself in it's own terms and making a punt that this is all there is. Naturalists being people sliding serrupticiously from a method to a philosophy hoping no one notices.

That the methodology works on nature doesn't help you out in anyway.
At least it has something to look at. Where's your God?