Author Topic: Ontological Argument.......Really?  (Read 35567 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #150 on: November 16, 2015, 06:01:48 PM »
Which makes the chain uncreated.

Which makes the concept of creation inapplicable.

That's just a fancy way of avoiding the fact you have established that something can be uncreated.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #151 on: November 16, 2015, 06:21:23 PM »
So, to remove an unobserved creator what you are invoking is Ockhams razor........by introducing infinite unobserved causes and infinite unobserved effects!!!!??????


Everything we see is cause and effect. Everything. So we either arbitrarily decide that's not viable for ever, or we deduce from it that there's an infinite reality. Infinite reality is a deduction from the evidence; God is an arbitrary invention to avoid the conclusion from that evidence.

Yes, Occam's razor shaves falls on the side of the infinite reality.

O.

Why have you switched from infinite chain of events to calling it an infinite reality?
I'll let you explain before I expose you.

I take it you mean a chain of material events.....That presupposes that material equals reality.......

How is that ''deduced''? ;)

Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #152 on: November 16, 2015, 07:41:59 PM »
That's just a fancy way of avoiding the fact you have established that something can be uncreated.

No, I've established that finite things are created in an endless chain. Nothing within that it is 'uncreated', and it has no point at which it could be created - the concept is meaningless.

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Why have you switched from infinite chain of events to calling it an infinite reality?
I'll let you explain before I expose you.

I take it you mean a chain of material events.....That presupposes that material equals reality.......

How is that ''deduced''?

The infinite chain of events occurs within the infinite reality - it depends on what I'm talking about which I use. Are they material events - presumably, given that we have no reason to think any other kinds exist, but I'm not ruling out other possibilities, just waiting for someone to give a reason to accept them.

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #153 on: November 16, 2015, 08:49:29 PM »
No, I've established that finite things are created in an endless chain.
yep, and that is uncreated.

And if it is a chain of cause and effect observed in material then the material is uncreated......or is it ? Because we are still left with the question....all join in.......why something and not nothing.

As an aside...........why can't the chain be a circle?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #154 on: November 16, 2015, 09:20:28 PM »


The infinite chain of events occurs within the infinite reality - it depends on what I'm talking about which I use. Are they material events - presumably, given that we have no reason to think any other kinds exist,

How have we no reason?(this should be good)

Can you show this infinite chain beyond the big bang when time started. I would have thought time starting would rather rule out the concept of infinite cause and effect.

Is the infinite chain of events the infinite event or is the material in which they occur the infinite reality.

If it is the material then the material is uncaused.

If it is the chain then the chain is uncaused.

We are then faced with the question why something and not nothing or in this context why is the material there.

The big problem is do you go with the scientists universe created with time.

or do we go with a universe which has a start in time.

It seems to me that an infinite regression of cause and effect is unfalsifiable.

Also a loop of causation is more sensible than an infinite chain.

so instead of the ....is caused by whatever which causes a which causes b which causes c which ad infinitum.

We have a which causes b which causes c which causes a. To shortened it.

How does infinite cause and effect ride with the laws of thermodynamics etc.

jeremyp

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #155 on: November 16, 2015, 10:31:16 PM »

Ah, so cause and effect is out of the window.
Aha. The penny finally drops.

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Can you point to anything that has popped out of nothing?
Your god apparently.
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jeremyp

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #156 on: November 16, 2015, 10:33:30 PM »
The Universe is not in the Universe. There's no evidence or reason that it has a cause.

No reason?...You mean it couldn't possibly have a cause


There's no reason why it should have a cause.
So your argument stands on your belief that you can put an object inside itself. Do you realise how stupid that sounds? If not, I suggest you go find a box or a bag and try to put it inside itself.  It should give you hours of entertainment.

Are you saying there is no universe inside the universe?

Are you being deliberately stupid?

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You said the universe is not in the universe. Where is it then?

The universe is a bag is it or box according to you.......are the things in the bag not the universe?

I tell you what, you find something physical that is inside itself and we'll all revise the laws of physics. The Tardis doesn't count.
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Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #157 on: November 16, 2015, 11:05:19 PM »
yep, and that is uncreated.

And if it is a chain of cause and effect observed in material then the material is uncreated......or is it ? Because we are still left with the question....all join in.......why something and not nothing.

As an aside...........why can't the chain be a circle?

Why presume there is a why? If it's infinite, the absence of an opportunity for cause obviates the idea of a purpose.

Why couldn't it be a circle - conceptually that's difficult. No obvious reason why it couldn't, it doesn't feel right but I can't express why. I'll work on it.

O.
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Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #158 on: November 16, 2015, 11:15:33 PM »
How have we no reason?(this should be good

As yet no-one's given a sufficient one.

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Can you show this infinite chain beyond the big bang when time started. I would have thought time starting would rather rule out the concept of infinite cause and effect.

No, that's why it's deduced and not demonstrated. As to which dimensions it might be infinite in, that's undetermined in the absence of data.

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Is the infinite chain of events the infinite event or is the material in which they occur the infinite reality.

The infinite chain of events is (some of?) the activity within the infinite reality. We, and our universe, are part of that infinite chain of events.

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If it is the material then the material is uncaused. If it is the chain then the chain is uncaused.

The concept of cause is still meaningless.

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We are then faced with the question why something and not nothing or in this context why is the material there.

No, we aren't. There is no cause to think there is a purpose or a reason. In an infinite chain, with no validity to the concept of 'cause' there is no opportunity for anything to introduce a purpose or implement a reason - it's infinite.

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The big problem is do you go with the scientists universe created with time.

The likelihood that our concept of time is not represented outside of the universe makes conceptual understanding of an extra-universal reality difficult, I'll grant you, but it doesn't preclude the possibility of some corollary dimension being 'available'.

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or do we go with a universe which has a start in time.

The available evidence as it stands doesn't support that.

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It seems to me that an infinite regression of cause and effect is unfalsifiable.

Possibly, yes.

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Also a loop of causation is more sensible than an infinite chain.

Why? You have the bootstrap paradox to contend with in looped time, which does not occur with linear infinity.

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How does infinite cause and effect ride with the laws of thermodynamics etc.

The general principle that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only reformed still holds, although what those concepts mean outside of our understanding of time is questionable. The other thermodynamic are more explicitly linked with our understanding of time and quite possibly don't apply outside of the universe. If they do, they would apply to other dimensional constraints that we can't, in the absence of data, adequately define.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #159 on: November 17, 2015, 06:57:20 PM »
As yet no-one's given a sufficient one.

No, that's why it's deduced and not demonstrated. As to which dimensions it might be infinite in, that's undetermined in the absence of data.

The infinite chain of events is (some of?) the activity within the infinite reality. We, and our universe, are part of that infinite chain of events.

The concept of cause is still meaningless.

No, we aren't. There is no cause to think there is a purpose or a reason. In an infinite chain, with no validity to the concept of 'cause' there is no opportunity for anything to introduce a purpose or implement a reason - it's infinite.

The likelihood that our concept of time is not represented outside of the universe makes conceptual understanding of an extra-universal reality difficult, I'll grant you, but it doesn't preclude the possibility of some corollary dimension being 'available'.

The available evidence as it stands doesn't support that.

Possibly, yes.

Why? You have the bootstrap paradox to contend with in looped time, which does not occur with linear infinity.

The general principle that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only reformed still holds, although what those concepts mean outside of our understanding of time is questionable. The other thermodynamic are more explicitly linked with our understanding of time and quite possibly don't apply outside of the universe. If they do, they would apply to other dimensional constraints that we can't, in the absence of data, adequately define.

O.
Dearest Outrider

First of all you are being fast and loose with the term evidence.  Postulating the idea of an infinite regress of cause and effect is not the same as evidence for it. You appeal to science for evidence and yet an infinite regression of cause and effect is unfalsifiable. The problem is this if you are asserting that an unfalsifiable is the explanation of the universe you cannot then discount anything that is reasonable and unfalsifiable.

Infinity is not observed in the universe. While it is reasonable as a reasoned deduction it is therefore not the immediate course reason can follow and you are thus wrong to posit your theory as the only reasonable one. We see a universe for which there is no evidence of infinity( An infinite future has not after all happened. Cause and effect in the universe therefore might lead us reasonable to think that it had a cause.

Finally in terms of Ockham's Razor you could well have not only introduced entities beyond necessity but comprehensively done so by suggesting infinite causes when one infinite cause would do.

It is ridiculous to suggest as you do that cause is irrelevant in an infinite chain of causation, since you provide an infinity of causation.

I don't feel you have adequately shown that the infinite chain of causation was neither created nor uncreated.

In terms of energy not being able to be created or destroyed the question still remains.....why is there any energy anyway?

SqueakyVoice

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #160 on: November 17, 2015, 07:34:24 PM »
I reckon I can blow this argument out of the water for good.
Could you get on with it then?
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Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #161 on: November 17, 2015, 09:35:24 PM »
First of all you are being fast and loose with the term evidence.  Postulating the idea of an infinite regress of cause and effect is not the same as evidence for it.

I've suggested it's a deduction from the available evidence - everything we can measure or detect is part of a chain of cause and effect. If we deduce from this that everything is an effect of an earlier cause, we have an infinite regress. I've been quite open about that process, there's no 'fast and loose' with it.

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You appeal to science for evidence and yet an infinite regression of cause and effect is unfalsifiable.

It is falsifiable - all you need do is provide a reliable basis for accepting an effect without a cause, and my deductive logic is undermined.

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The problem is this if you are asserting that an unfalsifiable is the explanation of the universe you cannot then discount anything that is reasonable and unfalsifiable.

I've not asserted anything, I've deduced it from the available evidence.

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Infinity is not observed in the universe. While it is reasonable as a reasoned deduction it is therefore not the immediate course reason can follow and you are thus wrong to posit your theory as the only reasonable one.

I didn't say it was the only reasonable one. If you think there's a better explanation feel free to posit it, along with the supporting evidence and rationale.

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We see a universe for which there is no evidence of infinity( An infinite future has not after all happened.

That rather depends on your view of what time is, and whether our perception of it is limited. It's entirely possible that the entirety of time co-exists as a block, a dimension through which our awareness has limited capacity to alter its flow.

We do see evidence for infinity - we see no uncaused effects, which means whatever we can deduce is itself the result of a precursor. That we lack reliable data means we rely on deduction rather than direct confirmation. Our mathematical models, which have made predictions which were then experimentally verified, suggest an infinite future for our universe.

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Cause and effect in the universe therefore might lead us reasonable to think that it had a cause.

I don't see how, but by all means make the case.

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Finally in terms of Ockham's Razor you could well have not only introduced entities beyond necessity but comprehensively done so by suggesting infinite causes when one infinite cause would do.

If you do not have an infinite chain of causes you are forced to try to explain your singular infinite cause. The infinite chain of events does not require anything new to be added to the model, your singular infinite cause is of a different nature - Occam's Razor is not in your favour on that.

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It is ridiculous to suggest as you do that cause is irrelevant in an infinite chain of causation, since you provide an infinity of causation.

So you have causation for any given element, but the idea of 'A' definitive or original cause is nonsensical. It's asking 'what's the other side of an infinite horizon', what's 'infinity plus one' - it isn't defined.

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I don't feel you have adequately shown that the infinite chain of causation was neither created nor uncreated.

I feel it's quite apparent from the available evidence - we have no example of anything that's not the effect of a prior cause. Why presume for no reason that at some arbitrary point there was one?

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In terms of energy not being able to be created or destroyed the question still remains.....why is there any energy anyway?

And, again, you're begging the question. Why presume there's a justification? Why presume 'why' has any meaning. What are the other options? What is the underlying nature that means an absence of the capacity for energy is a viable concept.

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #162 on: November 17, 2015, 10:39:49 PM »
I've suggested it's a deduction from the available evidence - everything we can measure or detect is part of a chain of cause and effect. If we deduce from this that everything is an effect of an earlier cause, we have an infinite regress.


No all we can deduce is that the universe had a cause.
That is the first stop.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #163 on: November 17, 2015, 10:42:40 PM »


It is falsifiable
No falsifiability is a scientific concept based on testability and an infinite regression is not testable.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #164 on: November 17, 2015, 10:46:00 PM »


We do see evidence for infinity - we see no uncaused effects,

But infinity is an uncaused effect. And once you allow one etc.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #165 on: November 17, 2015, 10:54:14 PM »
we have no example of anything that's not the effect of a prior cause.
Except the material in which the chain of cause and effect is occurring.

Checkmate.

Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #166 on: November 17, 2015, 10:54:55 PM »
No all we can deduce is that the universe had a cause. That is the first stop.

No, we can deduce that all effects have causes, which are themselve effects. That's the pattern we see everywhere. If you want to disprove that, just demonstrate an uncaused effect.

And, of course, a methodology for validating it.

O.
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Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #167 on: November 17, 2015, 10:55:48 PM »
No falsifiability is a scientific concept based on testability and an infinite regression is not testable.

But the precepts upon which the deduction are made are.

O.
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Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #168 on: November 17, 2015, 10:57:29 PM »
But infinity is an uncaused effect. And once you allow one etc.

No, again, the notion of a cause of infinity is meaningless. It's not a valid concept. You have an infinitely long chain - how do you get to the end to pull it?

Similarly, you have an infinite chain of events, how do you get to the 'first' one to cause it?

O.
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Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #169 on: November 17, 2015, 10:58:45 PM »
Except the material in which the chain of cause and effect is occurring. Checkmate.

Causing the infinite chain is still nonsensical - saying that the metal is not infinite even though the chain is is just silly.

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #170 on: November 17, 2015, 11:03:03 PM »
Causing the infinite chain is still nonsensical - saying that the metal is not infinite even though the chain is is just silly.

O.
Non sequitur

If you have a materialistic infinite chain of cause and effect the material in which it occurs cannot have a cause.

Checkmate.

Outrider

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #171 on: November 17, 2015, 11:06:28 PM »
Non sequitur

If you have a materialistic infinite chain of cause and effect the material in which it occurs cannot have a cause.

Checkmate.

No, the material IS the chain of cause and effect.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #172 on: November 17, 2015, 11:11:52 PM »
No, the material IS the chain of cause and effect.

O.
No. material is merely material. it is merely shaped or allocated by the passage of time.

jeremyp

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #173 on: November 18, 2015, 12:35:28 AM »
No all we can deduce is that the universe had a cause.
How?
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jeremyp

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Re: Ontological Argument.......Really?
« Reply #174 on: November 18, 2015, 12:41:47 AM »
If you want to disprove that, just demonstrate an uncaused effect.

The spontaneous decay of carbon-14 into an electron, an anti neutrino and nitrogen-14

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