Sunday trading

[wigginhall]

Outrider wrote:

I don't think it's complicated, I think it's ideological bollocks. The point they actually want to make is 'we have an opportunity to stick it to the Tory scum because they have a partial split in their ranks and a very small majority', much as the SNP are. Their excuse is just fatuous crap to try to hide that. Unions should be standing up for their workers when they need to and working with employers when they need to, and the rest of the time they should be just invisible. Too often it seems like the unions are trying to justify their existence in a culture where, broadly, we have employment rights in place.

That seems harsh to me.  They are defending their members, which is their raison d'etre.   Presumably, USDAW members are opposed to increased Sunday working. 

The complicated bit is the relation to Scotland, where there is already Sunday trading. 

[ProfessorDavey]

Outrider wrote:

I don't think it's complicated, I think it's ideological bollocks. The point they actually want to make is 'we have an opportunity to stick it to the Tory scum because they have a partial split in their ranks and a very small majority', much as the SNP are. Their excuse is just fatuous crap to try to hide that. Unions should be standing up for their workers when they need to and working with employers when they need to, and the rest of the time they should be just invisible. Too often it seems like the unions are trying to justify their existence in a culture where, broadly, we have employment rights in place.

That seems harsh to me.  They are defending their members, which is their raison d'etre.   Presumably, USDAW members are opposed to increased Sunday working. 

The complicated bit is the relation to Scotland, where there is already Sunday trading.

But unless USDAW also support reducing opening hours in Scotland their response lacks coherence or credibility. You cannot easily argue that longer opening hours are good in Scotland but would be bad in England.

[jeremyp]

It's odd how the SNP are being vilified for this, and the fact that the Tories can't get their bill through the Commons via their own MPs is being ignored.   Oppositions parties oppose, and governments pass bills, unless they can't.

Not really strange at all. The Tory MPs are representing the country where this measure will take effect. They are also not the party in power in a country that already has no restrictions.

Weren't the SNP also angry that the Scotland Bill has not included control over tax credits?

Since that affects Scotland, it is a more legitimate thing for the SNP to stick their oar in over.

[Hope]

But unless USDAW also support reducing opening hours in Scotland their response lacks coherence or credibility. You cannot easily argue that longer opening hours are good in Scotland but would be bad in England.

PD, since this is a devolved issue as far as Scotland (but not Wales) is concerned, I assume that USDAW and some other unions are addressing this particular piece of England and Wales legislation, rather than trying at this stage to overthrow an existing piece of Scottish legislation.

[Hope]

True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.

On that argument, there ought to be no public holidays or festivals, since all the ones we have are, in one way or another, related to belief-systems - be it the Marxist May1st festival, Doshain/Deepavali, Eid, Samhain, Easter, ...

[Gordon]

But unless USDAW also support reducing opening hours in Scotland their response lacks coherence or credibility. You cannot easily argue that longer opening hours are good in Scotland but would be bad in England.

PD, since this is a devolved issue as far as Scotland (but not Wales) is concerned, I assume that USDAW and some other unions are addressing this particular piece of England and Wales legislation, rather than trying at this stage to overthrow an existing piece of Scottish legislation.

I can't see any prospect of the SNP implementing regressive Sunday trading legislation here, especially since the option of unrestricted Sunday opening for large supermarkets is the well-established norm here to the extent that it isn't an issue at all: in fact the large Asda in Clydebank (10 minutes drive from here) is open 24/7 inc. Sundays.

Nobody is forced to shop on Sunday or is prevented from doing whatever else they can legally choose to do with their Sunday, so since this is so unremarkable here I'm struggling to see why it should be such a thorny problem in England & Wales.

 

[Outrider]

True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.

On that argument, there ought to be no public holidays or festivals, since all the ones we have are, in one way or another, related to belief-systems - be it the Marxist May1st festival, Doshain/Deepavali, Eid, Samhain, Easter, ...

Well, no, most of those are congregated around seasonal variations: Spring, midwinter etc. I'd agree, though, that we could stand to spread the public holidays out a little.

The reason I don't like the idea of Keep Sunday Special is that there are a great many people from those others faiths for whom Sunday is irrelevant but another day of the week is not. Some see Fridays as important, some Saturdays - a law that entitles people to designate their own 'sacred' day would be far more accommodating and 'user' friendly than a blanket, Christianity oriented 'Sunday for all'.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

a law that entitles people to designate their own 'sacred' day would be far more accommodating and 'user' friendly than a blanket, Christianity oriented 'Sunday for all'.

But it would end up that everybody's sacred day was the same. Wouldn't it. Some tit who had his sacred day on another day would be sending you e mails and expecting a response. Traffic would rumble, planes would buzz overhead.

Lot's of opportunities for social cohesion lost.

[Gordon]

a law that entitles people to designate their own 'sacred' day would be far more accommodating and 'user' friendly than a blanket, Christianity oriented 'Sunday for all'.

But it would end up that everybody's sacred day was the same. Wouldn't it. Some tit who had his sacred day on another day would be sending you e mails and expecting a response. Traffic would rumble, planes would buzz overhead.

Lot's of opportunities for social cohesion lost.

They rumble and buzz now: on any day, including Sundays, the airports, hospitals and power stations etc whether or not some think Sunday is sacred.

I wonder what the reaction would be if someone suggested, as part of keeping Sunday special, that Heathrow and Gatwick airports should be limited to 6 hours trading on a Sunday so as to be compatible with the restrictions on Sunday shopping - apart from those living under airport flightpaths I somehow suspect we'd hear cries of 'Nanny State' and complaints about unjustified interference and constraints on reasonable activity.

The current England & Wales situation seems daft to me since there is ample confirmation from here that there is no problem.   

[Outrider]

But it would end up that everybody's sacred day was the same. Wouldn't it. Some tit who had his sacred day on another day would be sending you e mails and expecting a response. Traffic would rumble, planes would buzz overhead.

I have colleagues who don't work the five day week, I have colleagues who take holidays, somehow we muddle through. On the other hand, I work Monday to Friday, and unfortunately so do almost all the banks, insurance companies, government departments etc. Makes it difficult to make appointments for anything without using up holidays I would otherwise use for socially cohering.

Lot's of opportunities for social cohesion lost.

Not really, people will spread their days out to suit themselves, providers will see their traffic balance over the week rather than peaking on particular days, people will be able to tailor their studies, work and social life to suit themselves, transport infrastructure will be less compressed... seems like a good idea to me.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But it would end up that everybody's sacred day was the same. Wouldn't it. Some tit who had his sacred day on another day would be sending you e mails and expecting a response. Traffic would rumble, planes would buzz overhead.

I have colleagues who don't work the five day week, I have colleagues who take holidays, somehow we muddle through. On the other hand, I work Monday to Friday, and unfortunately so do almost all the banks, insurance companies, government departments etc. Makes it difficult to make appointments for anything without using up holidays I would otherwise use for socially cohering.

Lot's of opportunities for social cohesion lost.

Not really, people will spread their days out to suit themselves, providers will see their traffic balance over the week rather than peaking on particular days, people will be able to tailor their studies, work and social life to suit themselves, transport infrastructure will be less compressed... seems like a good idea to me.

O.

No, it'll just feel like being on nightshift. You have the hours off but everybody else will be buzzing about being busy. You ask anybody who has done it.

In terms of use and wear and tear everything will be expected to be working twenty four seven.

[Outrider]

No, it'll just feel like being on nightshift. You have the hours off but everybody else will be buzzing about being busy. You ask anybody who has done it.

I've done nights, hated it, couldn't get it to work for me, but I know other people that swear by it. Horses for courses.

In terms of use and wear and tear everything will be expected to be working twenty four seven.

People will have to have redundancy or planned downtime, but then many, many industries manage perfectly well with that already. A significant portion of the manufacturing plants up and down the country operate 24/7, emergency services, the military, oil-platforms... you build redundancy into your system and perform maintenance on a rolling basis, it's fairly standard.

O.

[jeremyp]

True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.

On that argument, there ought to be no public holidays or festivals, since all the ones we have are, in one way or another, related to belief-systems

No they aren't. The two May bank holidays and New Year's Day are secular.

be it the Marxist May1st festival

You just have to be joking.

[ad_orientem]

True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.

Yeah, let's make all the days the same.  No days where people can rest, 7 day working weeks and for no special pay.

[Shaker]

True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.

Yeah, let's make all the days the same.  No days where people can rest, 7 day working weeks and for no special pay.

While this might in your mind make for hand-wringing rhetoric, you know as well as anyone does (or should, if they want to be qualified to talk on the subject) that extending Sunday trading hours (as in Scotland) doesn't mean that nobody rests; it means that different people have different days off.

[jeremyp]

True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.

Yeah, let's make all the days the same.  No days where people can rest, 7 day working weeks and for no special pay.

Please don't lie.

You know as well as anybody that not having Sunday special does not mean that people will have no days off. It simply means they don't have to choose Saturday and Sunday if they don't want to.

[ad_orientem]

True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.

Yeah, let's make all the days the same.  No days where people can rest, 7 day working weeks and for no special pay.

Please don't lie.

You know as well as anybody that not having Sunday special does not mean that people will have no days off. It simply means they don't have to choose Saturday and Sunday if they don't want to.

And all the days being the same there will be no Sunday pay. Again the worker loses out.

[jeremyp]

And all the days being the same there will be no Sunday pay. Again the worker loses out.

So called Sunday pay is extra because it recognises the fact that you would be working on your normal day off. If I had designated Tuesday and Wednesday as my "weekend" my employer would still have to pay me extra if he wanted me come in to work then.

[Gonnagle]

Dear World,

The ones who are pro Sunday opening, you have all been conned.

For evidence I give you Norway ( or is it Sweden ).

Less working hours all round.

More time for everyone to stop and stare.

Just me but this 24/7 stuff is so Victorian, everyone scrabbling to put food on the table, no time to stop and stare.

Gonnagle.

[Outrider]

True. Keep Sunday special has no more place in a multicultural society than Bishops with reserved seats in the Lords.

Yeah, let's make all the days the same.  No days where people can rest, 7 day working weeks and for no special pay.

Have I, for a moment, suggested anything to remove the provisions of the working time directive? No, I've suggested a liberalisation of the law so that people can choose which day of the week they wish to have as 'special' for them.

O.

[Outrider]

And all the days being the same there will be no Sunday pay. Again the worker loses out.

A given individual worker might lose out, perhaps, but there is no reason that overtime payments would be affected. What would happen, with a more even and balanced working week, is that people who currently struggle to get a job would have more options.

One individual loses an opportunity for a bonus payment, someone else gets onto the working ladder in the first place - it's a trade-off, yes, but it gives workers and consumers added flexibility in their lives, which is something that money can't buy.

O.

[ad_orientem]

And all the days being the same there will be no Sunday pay. Again the worker loses out.

So called Sunday pay is extra because it recognises the fact that you would be working on your normal day off. If I had designated Tuesday and Wednesday as my "weekend" my employer would still have to pay me extra if he wanted me come in to work then.

Well, in my contract I get payed double on a Sunday because it's a Sunday, regardless of how many hours I've worked that week and if I've already done six days I get payed triple.

[Rhiannon]

But you live in Finland.

[Outrider]

Outrider wrote:

I don't think it's complicated, I think it's ideological bollocks. The point they actually want to make is 'we have an opportunity to stick it to the Tory scum because they have a partial split in their ranks and a very small majority', much as the SNP are. Their excuse is just fatuous crap to try to hide that. Unions should be standing up for their workers when they need to and working with employers when they need to, and the rest of the time they should be just invisible. Too often it seems like the unions are trying to justify their existence in a culture where, broadly, we have employment rights in place.

That seems harsh to me.  They are defending their members, which is their raison d'etre.   Presumably, USDAW members are opposed to increased Sunday working. 

The complicated bit is the relation to Scotland, where there is already Sunday trading.

Apologies, that wasn't quite as clear as I thought it was: the SNP's actions are purely political manouevring. USDAW's motives are less obviously a problem, though I think there's still an element of 'spite the Tories' to it - if they genuinely had this worry they'd be pressing the SNP to enact protective legislation as well.

O.

[Hope]

And all the days being the same there will be no Sunday pay. Again the worker loses out.

A given individual worker might lose out, perhaps, but there is no reason that overtime payments would be affected. What would happen, with a more even and balanced working week, is that people who currently struggle to get a job would have more options.

One individual loses an opportunity for a bonus payment, someone else gets onto the working ladder in the first place - it's a trade-off, yes, but it gives workers and consumers added flexibility in their lives, which is something that money can't buy.

O.

OK, but why not do away with overtime?  Your businesses would probably employ more that way than relying on Sunday trading.