Sunday trading

[Outrider]

OK, but why not do away with overtime?  Your businesses would probably employ more that way than relying on Sunday trading.

Some companies will find overtime useful for occasional peaks, some will find it costly and will want to increase their base employment - I don't think a one-size-fits-all imposed position would be advisable.

O.

[Udayana]

I quite like the idea of "equal" days with everyone able to choose which days they worked, but:  it is obviously unworkable for schools, and that will have a knock-on effect on everything and everyone else.

[Udayana]

So much for extended Sunday trading hours for England then.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35771252

[Hope]

Nobody is forced to shop on Sunday or is prevented from doing whatever else they can legally choose to do with their Sunday, so since this is so unremarkable here I'm struggling to see why it should be such a thorny problem in England & Wales.

Whilst no-one is faoced to shop on a Sunday, many are forced to work on such a day.  One of the reasons why the SNP voted against the Government's proposal was that they feared that UK-wide Sunday-trading would drag wages down across the board. 

[Hope]

The reason I don't like the idea of Keep Sunday Special is that there are a great many people from those others faiths for whom Sunday is irrelevant but another day of the week is not. Some see Fridays as important, some Saturdays - a law that entitles people to designate their own 'sacred' day would be far more accommodating and 'user' friendly than a blanket, Christianity oriented 'Sunday for all'.

O.

Ironically, that is what the Keep Sunday Special campaign has been arguing for some years, O.  That one day a week ought to kept special - and individuals can choose that day which suits their belief system.

[Shaker]

So much for extended Sunday trading hours for England then.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35771252

For now. It will be back (given the narrowness of the defeat), and in the none too distant future at that.

[Hope]

No they aren't. The two May bank holidays and New Year's Day are secular.

Are you suggesting that the Whitsun [Late May] Bank Holiday secular?  As for the early May Bank Holiday, that was introduced to celebrate the birthday of the USSR.  Historically, it probably originated as a Roman festival honoring the beginning of the summer season (in the northern hemisphere).

Nothing secular about that. 

Regarding New Year's Day, I still find it difficult to remember that it is a Bank Holiday.

[ProfessorDavey]

Whilst no-one is faoced to shop on a Sunday, many are forced to work on such a day.  One of the reasons why the SNP voted against the Government's proposal was that they feared that UK-wide Sunday-trading would drag wages down across the board.

In which case why don't the SNP, who control the Scottish parliament repeal the law in Scotland, which currently allows shops to open just as long as they like whether they are large or small.

This is classic policiticing from the SNP and deeply depressing. If you have any understanding of Scotland (as I do) you'd understand that the world hasn't fallen apart because Morrisons are able to open from 8am until 8am (if they choose and their are people who wish to shop during those hours and staff wanting to work), there has been no moral panic - everything works fine.

And if it is good enough for Scotland, why not for England.

So I can shop on line and have my order fulfilled by someone working on a Sunday whenever I make that final click, yet I cannot go into a physical shop - nonsense.

And if you are going to be have to work on a Sunday, surely it is better to work a full day rather than be restricted to working just six hours, which seems the worst possible situation - having you Sunday disrupted by having to work, but not being allowed to work a full working day, which of course would mean additional time off at some other time.

[Sebastian Toe]

Are you suggesting that the Whitsun [Late May] Bank Holiday secular? 

Unfortunately Hope, Pentecost this year is on 15th May which would make the non-secular late bank holiday (Whit Monday) due on 16th May.

When is the late May bank holiday actually due this year?
 The last Monday in May.
  That would be 30th May I believe.

Whit Monday is observed in some countries but not the UK, in fact has been like that for around 50 years now, you really do need to keep up with the times. 

Regarding New Year's Day, I still find it difficult to remember that it is a Bank Holiday.

Given the above, I'm not surprised.

[Sebastian Toe]

As for the early May Bank Holiday, that was introduced to celebrate the birthday of the USSR.

Was it not introduced to celebrate intentional workers day which pre-dates the birthday of the USSR?

Historically, it probably originated as a Roman festival honoring the beginning of the summer season (in the northern hemisphere).

Nothing secular about that. 

Not relevant as that was not the reason it was introduced to the UK as a Bank Holiday I would suggest.

[L.A.]

Whilst no-one is faoced to shop on a Sunday, many are forced to work on such a day.  One of the reasons why the SNP voted against the Government's proposal was that they feared that UK-wide Sunday-trading would drag wages down across the board.

It's maybe worth considering who gains from the current restrictions on Sunday trading - ONLINE companies!

Have the SNP perhaps forgotten to declare an interest in Amazon? 

[Hope]

Was it not introduced to celebrate intentional workers day which pre-dates the birthday of the USSR?

It was introduced in the UK in 1977(?) and I can't say that I ever remember it being sold as the UK's equivalent of Labour Day.  Much fuss was made about its being something related to the Soviet Union.

Not relevant as that was not the reason it was introduced to the UK as a Bank Holiday I would suggest.

But interesting. 

[Hope]

Unfortunately Hope, Pentecost this year is on 15th May which would make the non-secular late bank holiday (Whit Monday) due on 16th May.

When is the late May bank holiday actually due this year?
 The last Monday in May.
  That would be 30th May I believe.

Whit Monday is observed in some countries but not the UK, in fact has been like that for around 50 years now, you really do need to keep up with the times. 

Sorry, Seb, but perhaps you need to keep up with history.  The May Bank Holiday was historically asociated with Whitsun - and some calendars still call it that.  It was only moved by a week or two when the May Day Holiday was introduced in the 70s; no-one was too keen on two Bank Holidays so close to each other.

Given the above, I'm not surprised.

Not really, it only started in England in the 70s, and having lived outside of the UK for 10 years of my life, it never really got imprinted into my life.

[BeRational]

It's maybe worth considering who gains from the current restrictions on Sunday trading - ONLINE companies!

Have the SNP perhaps forgotten to declare an interest in Amazon? 

This is true.

I can order something on Saturday and it is delivered on Sunday!
It took me by surprise as I assumed I would have to wait until Monday, but no.

[Shaker]

This is true.

I can order something on Saturday and it is delivered on Sunday!
It took me by surprise as I assumed I would have to wait until Monday, but no.

Yup, same - I had something delivered a couple of Sundays ago and that's not the first time. And jolly nice it was too.

It's the nonsense of the situation as it stands - you can buy on a Sunday; you can have it delivered on a Sunday, but you can't shop after 4/5:00pm if the building is above a certain size - which will ensure that a relaxation of Sunday trading laws is inevitable. It's the British way to do the right thing only once all other options have been exhausted but we get there in the end. It hasn't been defeated so much as temporarily delayed for a few years - irritating, yes, annoying, certainly, but you need only look at the pace of progress on equalising the age of consent and on equal marriage for example to see why the issue will be revisited and put right. Liberalising measures aimed at maximising personal freedom always keep on coming round till the right thing is done. It will be back on the agenda soon enough.

[BeRational]

Yup, same - I had something delivered a couple of Sundays ago and that's not the first time. And jolly nice it was too.

It's the nonsense of the situation as it stands - you can buy on a Sunday; you can have it delivered on a Sunday, but you can't shop after 4/5:00pm if the building is above a certain size - which will ensure that a relaxation of Sunday trading laws is inevitable. It's the British way to do the right thing only once all other options have been exhausted but we get there in the end. It hasn't been defeated so much as temporarily delayed for a few years - irritating, yes, annoying, certainly, but you need only look at the pace of progress on equalising the age of consent and on equal marriage for example to see why the issue will be revisited and put right. Liberalising measures aimed at maximising personal freedom always keep on coming round till the right thing is done. It will be back on the agenda soon enough.

Exactly, as there must be lots of Sunday workers.
The orders are being picked and despatched, and delivered.

[Rhiannon]

Very irritated by this for the reasons detailed above. Utter nonsense.

[Gordon]

As I've said before, the restrictions in England and Wales seem daft in this day and age, but perhaps there is more of  'Sunday is special' mindset involved elsewhere in the UK (which raises the issue of who defines 'special'). It is ironic that Scottish MPs have been involved in preventing the easing of these restrictions elsewhere in the UK, albeit for domestic political reasons rather than worries about adults outwith Scotland being allowed to shop for longer over the weekend.

For example, my local Tesco supermarket in Milngavie is open from 8am-10pm every Sunday, including the upcoming Easter weekend, and the even bigger Tesco Extra (about 15 minutes drive) is open 24 hours including Sundays - this is just routine here and isn't contentious.

   

[ProfessorDavey]

Very irritated by this for the reasons detailed above. Utter nonsense.

I agree.

Having spent a lot of time in Scotland over the past years their approach is so much more sensible and civilised. And what it does is it allows people with busy lives (which is many of us) to fit the need for shopping around our desire to be doing other stuff, for example family and friends time. Currently you end up doing the reverse, having to fit the rest of your life around the need to shop.

[Sebastian Toe]

Sorry, Seb, but perhaps you need to keep up with history.  The May Bank Holiday was historically asociated with Whitsun - and some calendars still call it that.  It was only moved by a week or two when the May Day Holiday was introduced in the 70s; no-one was too keen on two Bank Holidays so close to each other.

Sorry, Hope but the non-secular Whitsun holiday is still practised in some countries on the correct date - just not in the UK.
The late Spring bank holiday in the UK is taken on the last Monday in May (with a few secular exceptions).
Sometimes it will coincide with Whitsun, but mostly it doesn't.

It was changed over 50 years ago from actually being Whitsun to not being Whitsun.
It was not moved because of the introduction of the International Workers day holiday (that was in 1978, introduced by Michael Foot IIRC.)

It was officially moved in fact in 1971 under the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971,  and that was following a trail period  from 1965 to 1970.
So 13 or 7 years (depending on how pedantic you want to be) before the early spring holiday was introduced in fact.

Unfortunately, Hope perhaps it is you who needs to keep up with history?

[L.A.]

I agree.

Having spent a lot of time in Scotland over the past years their approach is so much more sensible and civilised. And what it does is it allows people with busy lives (which is many of us) to fit the need for shopping around our desire to be doing other stuff, for example family and friends time. Currently you end up doing the reverse, having to fit the rest of your life around the need to shop.

Yet they choose to intervene in legislation that:

A/ Does not affect Scotland.

B/ Puts English and Welch Sunday trading laws closer to Scottish laws.

Ms Sturgeon is playing a very devious game.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yup, same - I had something delivered a couple of Sundays ago and that's not the first time. And jolly nice it was too.

It's the nonsense of the situation as it stands - you can buy on a Sunday; you can have it delivered on a Sunday, but you can't shop after 4/5:00pm if the building is above a certain size - which will ensure that a relaxation of Sunday trading laws is inevitable. It's the British way to do the right thing only once all other options have been exhausted but we get there in the end. It hasn't been defeated so much as temporarily delayed for a few years - irritating, yes, annoying, certainly, but you need only look at the pace of progress on equalising the age of consent and on equal marriage for example to see why the issue will be revisited and put right. Liberalising measures aimed at maximising personal freedom always keep on coming round till the right thing is done. It will be back on the agenda soon enough.

But I think even a great Conservative like yourself would recognise that in your afore mentioned examples there was no question of conflict with other people's freedoms and wages as there is here.

[Shaker]

But I think even a great Conservative like yourself

Nope; wrong chap.

Definitely the wrong chap.

Outstandingly the wrong chap.

Egregiously the wrong chap.

I think you're thinking of somebody else.

in your afore mentioned examples there was no question of conflict with other people's freedoms and wages as there is here.

They don't seem to think that that's the case in Scotland - why England?

[jakswan]

Ms Sturgeon is playing a very devious game.

Not really causes people in Scotland to smile and people in rUK anger, classic divide and rule play.

[Hope]

What I did find interesting is that in all the discussions I hear on the matter, not a single word referring to religion was brought up.  It was always a spokesperson from USDAW agin a spokesperson for big business!