Sunday trading

[ProfessorDavey]

What I did find interesting is that in all the discussions I hear on the matter, not a single word referring to religion was brought up.  It was always a spokesperson from USDAW agin a spokesperson for big business!

That's because most politicians are smart enough to know that using religion as the reason for trying to block Sunday trading will generate both derision and the unchallengable repost as to why the 95% of the population who don't attend church on a Sunday should be dictated to by the 5% who do.

So they use all sorts of other excuses for opposing, but undoubtedly the real reason (although they won't say it) is because they are religious and don't think we should be shopping on a Sundayfrom religious reasons.

[floo]

What I did find interesting is that in all the discussions I hear on the matter, not a single word referring to religion was brought up.  It was always a spokesperson from USDAW agin a spokesperson for big business!

Religion should have nothing to do with the matter.

[ProfessorDavey]

Religion should have nothing to do with the matter.

But it does of course. Do you think that there would be the same people trying to restrict opening if the day with restricted opening was a Wednesday. Those genuinely campaigning on the basis of workers rights would of course, but do you really think the hardline Christian Tories who swung the vote last week would have - of course not, they wouldn't have given a stuff.

[L.A.]

But it does of course. Do you think that there would be the same people trying to restrict opening if the day with restricted opening was a Wednesday. Those genuinely campaigning on the basis of workers rights would of course, but do you really think the hardline Christian Tories who swung the vote last week would have - of course not, they wouldn't have given a stuff.

Obviously, historically it was to do with religion and the church still have a view on the subject, but I think today there are other more important factors.

For example the unions imagine that they can force a better deal for their workers (clearly oblivious to the fact that if shops are open less people will shop online more) and of course our friends the SNP who presumably think that if they annoy us enough we might decide to get rid of them.

[ProfessorDavey]

Obviously, historically it was to do with religion and the church still have a view on the subject, but I think today there are other more important factors.

For example the unions imagine that they can force a better deal for their workers (clearly oblivious to the fact that if shops are open less people will shop online more) and of course our friends the SNP who presumably think that if they annoy us enough we might decide to get rid of them.

But do you really think that the uber-hard right Christian MP Peter Bone (teller for the No's last week) is at the forefront of blocking extended Sunday trading because of workers' rights. Of course he isn't. There remains a rump who oppose because they are Christians and they don't believe we should be shopping on a Sunday for religious reasons.

[Hope]

But do you really think that the uber-hard right Christian MP Peter Bone (teller for the No's last week) is at the forefront of blocking extended Sunday trading because of workers' rights. Of course he isn't. There remains a rump who oppose because they are Christians and they don't believe we should be shopping on a Sunday for religious reasons.

It would be interesting to know just how many of those 27 dissenters are uber-hard right in the first place.  I suspect that at least some would regard themselves as mainstream - in other words, neither left or right - other than the fact that, by definition, Christianity (and therefore potentially Christians) is pretty radical.

[L.A.]

But do you really think that the uber-hard right Christian MP Peter Bone (teller for the No's last week) is at the forefront of blocking extended Sunday trading because of workers' rights. Of course he isn't. There remains a rump who oppose because they are Christians and they don't believe we should be shopping on a Sunday for religious reasons.

Yes, there is a smattering of God Squad withing the Conservative party and with a small majority they have power, but Labour decided to keep their union paymasters happy by opposing, and Nicolas mob decided to be complete arses.

[Gordon]

Just to say that normally Mrs G does the weekly shop when the local Tesco opens on Sunday mornings at 8am, which I realise is before the main supermarkets open 'down south'.

Today she didn't though, since the youngest grandchild wasn't well overnight: he stayed here overnight and is fine now - and is back home with his parents (hooray!), so Mrs G has just gone off to Tesco to do the weekly shop (it closes at 10pm).

I'm struggling to see why this would be seen as being problematic if we lived in Gloucester instead of in Glasgow.

[L.A.]

Just to say that normally Mrs G does the weekly shop when the local Tesco opens on Sunday mornings at 8am, which I realise is before the main supermarkets open 'down south'.

Today she didn't though, since the youngest grandchild wasn't well overnight: he stayed here overnight and is fine now - and is back home with his parents (hooray!), so Mrs G has just gone off to Tesco to do the weekly shop (it closes at 10pm).

I'm struggling to see why this would be seen as being problematic if we lived in Gloucester instead of in Glasgow.

Hi Gordon,

I don't think many people on this side of the border would see that as problematic at all . . . .

Unfortunately, a bunch of troublemakers from your side of the border have 'stuck their oar in' and prevented that from happening here.

[Nearly Sane]

I wasn't in favour of the SNP votes but then Cameron could have amended the legislation to give the same protection on wages as exist in Scotland and that would have made the SNP's position untenable.

[L.A.]

I wasn't in favour of the SNP votes but then Cameron could have amended the legislation to give the same protection on wages as exist in Scotland and that would have made the SNP's position untenable.

My theory is that they are just trying to make themselves as objectionable as possible in the hope that they would get another referendum. They certainly make a good case for EVEL.

[Nearly Sane]

My theory is that they are just trying to make themselves as objectionable as possible in the hope that they would get another referendum. They certainly make a good case for EVEL.

Which might well be the case, but they made a specific argument that would have been dealt with by giving greater protection to worker's wages on Sundays, the ones that already exist in Scotland.

[L.A.]

Which might well be the case, but they made a specific argument that would have been dealt with by giving greater protection to worker's wages on Sundays, the ones that already exist in Scotland.

I think there are two points there:

1/ How does blocking legislation that affects England and Wales protect Scottish wages?

2/ How does forcing people to shop online help anyone in the traditional retail sector?

[Gordon]

Hi Gordon,

I don't think many people on this side of the border would see that as problematic at all . . . .

Unfortunately, a bunch of troublemakers from your side of the border have 'stuck their oar in' and prevented that from happening here.

They did so though because of domestic concerns that the Tory government could have addressed, and even then some Tories voted against. Presumably, if the Tories were really keen on removing restrictions, they could have done this under different legislation where EVEL could have applied.

[Gordon]

I think there are two points there:

1/ How does blocking legislation that affects England and Wales protect Scottish wages?

Because the major supermarkets are UK-wide so if this went ahead in rUK but without Sunday enhanced pay outside Scotland there is the risk of the 'rush to the bottom mentality' that could reduce pay here - and here is where the SNP support is.

[Nearly Sane]

I think there are two points there:

1/ How does blocking legislation that affects England and Wales protect Scottish wages?

2/ How does forcing people to shop online help anyone in the traditional retail sector?

The argument was whether you agree with it that the same legislation on wage support should have been applied. I would have expected people engaging with the argument to have followed it.

[L.A.]

They did so though because of domestic concerns that the Tory government could have addressed, and even then some Tories voted against. Presumably, if the Tories were really keen on removing restrictions, they could have done this under different legislation where EVEL could have applied.

I'm not sure that that was an option, I'm sure that if they could have got the law changed without all the problems, they would have done so. There was always the possibility of dissenters, so with a small majority it was always going to be on a knife-edge.

If the SNP had abstained or if Labour had allowed a free vote the result have been different and we would have gained the same rights as your mother. 

[Nearly Sane]

I'm not sure that that was an option, I'm sure that if they could have got the law changed without all the problems, they would have done so. There was always the possibility of dissenters, so with a small majority it was always going to be on a knife-edge.

If the SNP had abstained or if Labour had allowed a free vote the result have been different and we would have gained the same rights as your mother. 

There is existing legislation on this in Scotland, are you really saying it is beyond the wit of the Tory govt to copy some homework. The SNP were undoubtedly playing politics, so we're the Tories in wanting less protection for workers than exists in Scotland.

[L.A.]

Because the major supermarkets are UK-wide so if this went ahead in rUK but without Sunday enhanced pay outside Scotland there is the risk of the 'rush to the bottom mentality' that could reduce pay here - and here is where the SNP support is.

That sounds like control freakery in the extreme! The idea that you should be able to influence the wages of a small sector of your workers by intervening in the politics of another country?

The major supermarkets are under great competitive pressure at the moment and the hypothetical possibility of reduced pay (unlikely with the new living wage) is the last thing their employees should be worrying about.

[L.A.]

There is existing legislation on this in Scotland, are you really saying it is beyond the wit of the Tory govt to copy some homework. The SNP were undoubtedly playing politics, so we're the Tories in wanting less protection for workers than exists in Scotland.

I'm just saying that if there had been an easy way of doing it I'm sure they would have done it.

But at least we agree that the SNP were just playing politics.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm just saying that if there had been an easy way of doing it I'm sure they would have done it.

But at least we agree that the SNP were just playing politics.

No, you are asserting it and giving the Tory govt some bizarre free pass, which can of course be easily disproved if you look at them filibustering on Friday to talk out time for Caroline Lucas' bill.

To say govt can't pass a law similar to one that already exists means you are calling them dangerously incompetent in terms of their ability to carry out on of their main key competencies.

[Gordon]

I'm not sure that that was an option, I'm sure that if they could have got the law changed without all the problems, they would have done so. There was always the possibility of dissenters, so with a small majority it was always going to be on a knife-edge.

If the SNP had abstained or if Labour had allowed a free vote the result have been different and we would have gained the same rights as your mother. 

My mother?

[L.A.]

My mother?

I'm so sorry Gordon, I'm afraid I mis-read your earlier post.

I meant of course your good lady.

[Gordon]

That sounds like control freakery in the extreme! The idea that you should be able to influence the wages of a small sector of your workers by intervening in the politics of another country?

The Tories tried do to this under UK-wide legislation and on that basis the SNP are doing what they were elected to do, which is to look after the interests of the people of Scotland, and as they are entitled to do as elected Westminster MPs.

I'd have thought the far bigger issue was the decision of the Labour party to oppose this. After all there is only one Labour MP from Scotland and I'd be very surprised if it really were were the case that the majority of Labour MP's in England and Wales had major issues with Sunday trading - so the political machinations of Labour MPs representing the areas that would have been affected has had a far greater impact on the voting numbers than the SNP had.

The reality is that the Tories mismanaged this: aside from using UK-wide legislation when they knew they had home-grown rebels on this, and never mind the risk of SNP opposition, did they really expect support from the SNP so soon before the Holyrood election when the Tories are so unpopular here - 'SNP help Tory party reduce wages for Scottish shopworkers' wouldn't make a good headline for the SNP.       
 

[Gordon]

I'm so sorry Gordon, I'm afraid I mis-read your earlier post.

I meant of course your good lady.

No problem