Resurrection

[Owlswing]

Ain't it marvellous!

These Christians believe in their god, but mine, according to them, is a figment fo my imagination.

My belief in the cycle of Birth, Life, Death and rebirth is a load of rubbish, but they believe a man can be dead and come back from the dead!

And they call ME hypocrite!

It strikes me Owlswing that you are part way there. Why not read the Gospels and find out how an indestructible energy can be upbuilt within your own flesh and blood and carry your own profile into a new generation...courtesy of Jesus Christ.

To understand it all you will need a solid understanding in 'the Grand Unification of All Universal forces' and many here are finding it hard to grasp so perhaps faith will be more appropriate.

I don't need to go back over a load of rubbish (the holy bible) that iI rejected at age 15! It was rubbish then and it is rubbish now - your belief in your deity has as much validity as does mine. All scientific mumbo-jumbo in the world will never, ever, change that!

[Gordon]

Moderator:

We seem to be en route to another sniping session - so it stops now gents.

[Gordon]

Moderator:

BA - I suggest you read my most recent post.

Update - I've decided to remove the offending posts from disrupting this thread, having done this twice in recent days. Will those indulging in personal sniping for the sake of it please cease.

[BashfulAnthony]

Moderator:

BA - I suggest you read my most recent post.

Update - I've decided to remove the offending posts from disrupting this thread, having done this twice in recent days. Will those indulging in personal sniping for the sake of it please cease.

Point taken, though I notice , for what it's worth, that M125, a highly offensive comment, is left unchecked.

Moderator:

Perhaps you should be more concerned about your own recent posting since this is the third thread in so many days from which I moved some of your posts.

[Outrider]

Hasn't anyone ever told you that by sin the worst possible genetic fault...death...came into the world and that all genetic faults spring from it.

Yes, people have told me that. People have also told me that Voldemort is coming.

That is how we can be certain that following Jesus Christ's righteous science we can pay back for (repair) our sins.

Because someone told us? That's your threshold for accepting claims? On an unrelated note, I have a bridge to sell...

Time to start listening to the science that everything is a manifestation of the same scientific cause...God's fountain of living waters---or if you prefer...God's 'dynamic energy'. A property that stares us in the face every day by virtue of our very own star.

No, it's time for you to go and learn what science is, then either come back and demonstrate how this is science or rebrand it appropriately.

O.

[floo]

Getting back to the topic of 'resurrection', I reckon the resurrection of Jesus wasn't a physical coming back to life but a virtual one in the minds of his followers.

[Outrider]

Getting back to the topic of 'resurrection', I reckon the resurrection of Jesus wasn't a physical coming back to life but a virtual one in the minds of his followers.

Or possibly not even that, possibly just a creation on the page by those followers as an attempt to add significance by adopting older myths and legends like Mithras and Osiris.

It was a time of widespread credulity and superstition, and the normal way to gain celebrity for heroes was to ascribe superhuman feats to them. That they chose resurrection, feeding thousands, healing the sick etc. as those superhuman feats speaks well of their (and, implicitly, his) philosophy, but it doesn't change the likelihood that it's a construction.

O.

[Hope]

Quote from: Floo on Today at 10:37:54 AM

    Getting back to the topic of 'resurrection', I reckon the resurrection of Jesus wasn't a physical coming back to life but a virtual one in the minds of his followers.

Or possibly not even that, possibly just a creation on the page by those followers as an attempt to add significance by adopting older myths and legends like Mithras and Osiris.

It was a time of widespread credulity and superstition, and the normal way to gain celebrity for heroes was to ascribe superhuman feats to them. That they chose resurrection, feeding thousands, healing the sick etc. as those superhuman feats speaks well of their (and, implicitly, his) philosophy, but it doesn't change the likelihood that it's a construction.

O.

Yet the Mithras and Osiris stories were and remain very different to the Christian resurrection story.  Osiris was 'usually identified as the god of the afterlife, the underworld, and the dead, but more appropriately as the god of transition, resurrection, and regeneration' (wikipedia).  The story of Mithras is so hidden in conjecture that we don't really know what it was all about.  Some of the rituals may have appearred to be similar, but few if any Mithraic rituals had any similarity of purpose to Christian ones.

Perhaps you can explain how the apostles - Jews, rather than Romans or Egyptians - were abole to develop this very differnt religion out of these, other, alien ideas.

[Outrider]

Yet the Mithras and Osiris stories were and remain very different to the Christian resurrection story.  Osiris was 'usually identified as the god of the afterlife, the underworld, and the dead, but more appropriately as the god of transition, resurrection, and regeneration' (wikipedia).  The story of Mithras is so hidden in conjecture that we don't really know what it was all about.  Some of the rituals may have appearred to be similar, but few if any Mithraic rituals had any similarity of purpose to Christian ones.

I didn't say they co-opted it in its entirety, I just said they may have taken the idea of resurrection from there.

Perhaps you can explain how the apostles - Jews, rather than Romans or Egyptians - were abole to develop this very differnt religion out of these, other, alien ideas.

By mixing a variety of inputs from various sources - some creditable ethical philosophy, some Old Testament barbarity, a sprinkling of cultural misogyny, racism and homophobia and some borrowed magical elements.

The same way, really, anyone mixes the seven basic stories into a unique combination.

O.

[Owlswing]

I didn't say they co-opted it in its entirety, I just said they may have taken the idea of resurrection from there.

By mixing a variety of inputs from various sources - some creditable ethical philosophy, some Old Testament barbarity, a sprinkling of cultural misogyny, racism and homophobia and some borrowed magical elements.

The same way, really, anyone mixes the seven basic stories into a unique combination.

O.

But the biblical account are not a mixture of anything - it is the revealed word of God! Isn't it?

[Outrider]

But the biblical account are not a mixture of anything - it is the revealed word of God! Isn't it?

So, I've heard, are the Qu'ran and the Book of Mormon... Maybe there's just a lot of gods? Or, maybe, there's just one god with some sort of multiple personality disorder?

O.

[Hope]

I didn't say they co-opted it in its entirety, I just said they may have taken the idea of resurrection from there.

I doubt it, since the idea actually existed in Judaism.  Not particularly strongly, but it does feature in the OT.

Perhaps you can explain how the apostles - Jews, rather than Romans or Egyptians - were abole to develop this very differnt religion out of these, other, alien ideas.

By mixing a variety of inputs from various sources - some creditable ethical philosophy, some Old Testament barbarity, a sprinkling of cultural misogyny, racism and homophobia and some borrowed magical elements.

The same way, really, anyone mixes the seven basic stories into a unique combination.

O.

OK, if that's the case, where is the rascism in Jesus' or the apostles' teaching?  Where, for that matter, is the barbarity you refer to?  Where's the misogyny?  Where are the magical elements?  Where is the homophobia?

refences are required not just throw away comments like the ones above that indicate that you haven't actually looked to see whether the issue is even mentioned.

[Outrider]

I doubt it, since the idea actually existed in Judaism.  Not particularly strongly, but it does feature in the OT.

And where, I wonder, did they inherit it from?

OK, if that's the case, where is the rascism in Jesus' or the apostles' teaching?

Apart from their reinforcement of the Old Testament idea of the Jews being a chosen people?

Where, for that matter, is the barbarity you refer to?

"Do not imagine I have come to bring peace... I have come with a sword" ... "Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire" .... Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

Where's the misogyny?

Jesus says that divorce is permissible when the wife is guilty of fornication. But what if the husband is unfaithful? Jesus doesn't seem to care about that. Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men (Romans 1:27). "Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man" ... Women are to dress modestly, "with shamefacedness" ...

Where are the magical elements?

Walking on water, turning the water into wine, feeding the five thousand, curing lepers by touch, raising Lazarus from the dead, resurrecting

Where is the homophobia?

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (Corinthians 6:9-10)

"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." (1 Timothy 1:8-11)

O.

[NicholasMarks]

Outrider:

One of the key facts missing from your analysis is that the kingdom of God, whether on planet Earth or in Heaven is a sin free zone. Not just will there be none of those traits you are quick to mention there will be no genetic error in the flesh of righteous men and women. This will be because the way, the truth and the life of Jesus Christ is a scientific code of genetic repair...not just repair at our own level of existence but a repair of all the sinful behaviour exhibited on the world stage.

There will be those who can't see the wonderful benefits this will bring and will be outspoken against all who have this righteous hope...these are the ones who Jesus says will be cut off. He makes no apologies for this...the world is in a terrible state and many are screaming out to Almighty God and Jesus Christ for help but like the wonderful, fair and honest God he is he is waiting for all those who can, to repent, knowing that resurrection will  wipe away all the tears from our eyes...and because of the indestructible, electric nature of the universe the Biblically structured, righteous spirit, has Jesus Christ's personal guarantee.

 

[floo]

Outrider:

One of the key facts missing from your analysis is that the kingdom of God, whether on planet Earth or in Heaven is a sin free zone. Not just will there be none of those traits you are quick to mention there will be no genetic error in the flesh of righteous men and women. This will be because the way, the truth and the life of Jesus Christ is a scientific code of genetic repair...not just repair at our own level of existence but a repair of all the sinful behaviour exhibited on the world stage.

There will be those who can't see the wonderful benefits this will bring and will be outspoken against all who have this righteous hope...these are the ones who Jesus says will be cut off. He makes no apologies for this...the world is in a terrible state and many are screaming out to Almighty God and Jesus Christ for help but like the wonderful, fair and honest God he is he is waiting for all those who can, to repent, knowing that resurrection will  wipe away all the tears from our eyes...and because of the indestructible, electric nature of the universe the Biblically structured, righteous spirit, has Jesus Christ's personal guarantee.

NM as has been said before you make it up as you go along. You state as fact something for which there is no evidence, just what you want to believe to be true!

[Outrider]

One of the key facts missing from your analysis is that the kingdom of God, whether on planet Earth or in Heaven is a sin free zone.

Nothing's missing from my 'analysis', because you've offered nothing that can be analysed. You've made unwarranted assertion after unwarranted assertion - here you introduce another evidence-free little tidbit, 'sin'. You've not demonstrated 'heaven', you've missed out the science in your unifiying account of science, you've asserted God and you think that adding another baseless idea will somehow rectify this?

Not just will there be none of those traits you are quick to mention there will be no genetic error in the flesh of righteous men and women.

Given that your previous depictions of 'righteousness' appear to be about accepting an arbitrary interpretation of one old book, I fail to see how that relates to genetic errors in people, which can occur before they're even capable of reading in order to (mis)interpret.

This will be because the way, the truth and the life of Jesus Christ is a scientific code of genetic repair...not just repair at our own level of existence but a repair of all the sinful behaviour exhibited on the world stage.

Why do you keep undermining your own good intentions by pretending like you have a clue about science? If you think this is science, learn some science so that you can either realise it isn't or explain it as a science.

There will be those who can't see the wonderful benefits this will bring and will be outspoken against all who have this righteous hope...these are the ones who Jesus says will be cut off.

That rather depends what you think will be the 'wonderful benefits'. If you mean the world will be a nicer, calmer, more equitable place I agree, and that would be great. If you're going to jibber unmitigated nonsense about unevidenced next-lives, why bother - we have a world here that needs work, let's fix that until and unless you can actually come up with anything to give justification to thinking there might be another.

He makes no apologies for this...the world is in a terrible state and many are screaming out to Almighty God and Jesus Christ for help but like the wonderful, fair and honest God he is he is waiting for all those who can, to repent, knowing that resurrection will  wipe away all the tears from our eyes...and because of the indestructible, electric nature of the universe the Biblically structured, righteous spirit, has Jesus Christ's personal guarantee.

The world is not in a terrible state - it could be better, but we have a more than adequate history that shows it has been much, much worse. All the rest of this is just baseless daydreaming.

O.

[floo]

NM has been asked to state what qualifications he has in science but as far as I am aware hasn't answered that question. Therefore it would appear that he hasn't any, and science is just a word he erroneously attaches to his very imaginative version of Christianity.

[BeRational]

NM has been asked to state what qualifications he has in science but as far as I am aware hasn't answered that question. Therefore it would appear that he hasn't any, and science is just a word he erroneously attaches to his very imaginative version of Christianity.

I think he does it because he knows that science is a good pathway to truth.

He thinks that by trying to associate his assertions with this well proven method, it will give his meaningless waffle more weight.

The fact he knows nothing about science, makes his efforts look pathetic, and somewhat sad.

[Nearly Sane]

NM has been asked to state what qualifications he has in science but as far as I am aware hasn't answered that question. Therefore it would appear that he hasn't any, and science is just a word he erroneously attaches to his very imaginative version of Christianity.

As when BA was touting his years of study as somehow an argument, I think the possible lack of qualifications is a red herring. You should just deal with the arguments, not indulge in Look at my certificate and your lack of one.

[NicholasMarks]

Outrider, Floo:

Thanks for that Nearly Sane...I have made no secret that my inspiration comes exclusively from the Holy Bible.

Because I am starting from the Biblically inspired point of view that the entire mass in the universe is the result of God's 'dynamic energy,' I have used it in my calculations and can see that Jesus is talking about the same stuff. I shouldn't really call it 'stuff' because in its entirety it is the spiritual flesh and blood of Almighty God and this is why he said he made everything...He is the living mouth-piece of all that energy.

Now, if we can unify the highest knowledge that science has pulled together calling them the key forces in the universe, then we have overtaken the knowledge-base of current modern science which is where Almighty God's and Jesus' sciences begin...and I make no apologies for that.

The rest is simply an analysis of the facts...not the least being that somehow space vehicles are entering our air-space displaying sciences we cannot even comprehend yet we can be outspoken against an authority that says he is the only force that can control them.

 

[BeRational]

Outrider, Floo:

Thanks for that Nearly Sane...I have made no secret that my inspiration comes exclusively from the Holy Bible.

Because I am starting from the Biblically inspired point of view that the entire mass in the universe is the result of God's 'dynamic energy,' I have used it in my calculations and can see that Jesus is talking about the same stuff. I shouldn't really call it 'stuff' because in its entirety it is the spiritual flesh and blood of Almighty God and this is why he said he made everything...He is the living mouth-piece of all that energy.

Now, if we can unify the highest knowledge that science has pulled together calling them the key forces in the universe, then we have overtaken the knowledge-base of current modern science which is where Almighty God's and Jesus' sciences begin...and I make no apologies for that.

The rest is simply an analysis of the facts...not the least being that somehow space vehicles are entering our air-space displaying sciences we cannot even comprehend yet we can be outspoken against an authority that says he is the only force that can control them.

 

Calculations?

Can you show your workings?

I am no mathematician, but I am sure there are people on the forum who are.

[floo]

Outrider, Floo:

Thanks for that Nearly Sane...I have made no secret that my inspiration comes exclusively from the Holy Bible.

Because I am starting from the Biblically inspired point of view that the entire mass in the universe is the result of God's 'dynamic energy,' I have used it in my calculations and can see that Jesus is talking about the same stuff. I shouldn't really call it 'stuff' because in its entirety it is the spiritual flesh and blood of Almighty God and this is why he said he made everything...He is the living mouth-piece of all that energy.

Now, if we can unify the highest knowledge that science has pulled together calling them the key forces in the universe, then we have overtaken the knowledge-base of current modern science which is where Almighty God's and Jesus' sciences begin...and I make no apologies for that.

The rest is simply an analysis of the facts...not the least being that somehow space vehicles are entering our air-space displaying sciences we cannot even comprehend yet we can be outspoken against an authority that says he is the only force that can control them.

 

The Bible is NOT science!

[Outrider]

Thanks for that Nearly Sane...I have made no secret that my inspiration comes exclusively from the Holy Bible.

And yet you claim science.

Because I am starting from the Biblically inspired point of view that the entire mass in the universe is the result of God's 'dynamic energy,' I have used it in my calculations and can see that Jesus is talking about the same stuff.

I'll forgo asking to see these 'calculations'. Science does not being with an 'inspired point of view'. It starts with observable phenomena and attempts to derive patterns and connections from these. God, Jesus (at least the magical depiction in the New Testament), and Biblically referenced 'Dynamic Energy' are not observable phenomena.

I shouldn't really call it 'stuff' because in its entirety it is the spiritual flesh and blood of Almighty God and this is why he said he made everything...He is the living mouth-piece of all that energy.

'Spiritual' is not a scientifically recognised term.

Now, if we can unify the highest knowledge that science has pulled together calling them the key forces in the universe, then we have overtaken the knowledge-base of current modern science which is where Almighty God's and Jesus' sciences begin...and I make no apologies for that.

The 'highest knowledge that science has pulled together' is the knowledge-base of current modern science. You don't need to apologise for this, it hasn't happened.

The rest is simply an analysis of the facts...not the least being that somehow space vehicles are entering our air-space displaying sciences we cannot even comprehend yet we can be outspoken against an authority that says he is the only force that can control them.

Fact: "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means". Likewise 'science'.

O.

[NicholasMarks]

Calculations?

Can you show your workings?

I am no mathematician, but I am sure there are people on the forum who are.

When you try to trip someone up you shouldn't wear such big clumsy boots, BeRational.

Calculations don't have to be mathematical. They just have to be logical and work over and over again.

Here is one of my calculations...That all the mechanics of the universe are a powerful reaction between the conflicts of two, separate, dimensional forces. This includes gravity, the Higgs, electromagnetic force and life itself. Now, you can show your disregard for the owner of these forces as much as you want but it will not snatch away that ownership and it will not bring you the wonderful fruits they offer...which includes resurrection.

[BeRational]

When you try to trip someone up you shouldn't wear such big clumsy boots, BeRational.

Calculations don't have to be mathematical. They just have to be logical and work over and over again.

Here is one of my calculations...That all the mechanics of the universe are a powerful reaction between the conflicts of two, separate, dimensional forces. This includes gravity, the Higgs, electromagnetic force and life itself. Now, you can show your disregard for the owner of these forces as much as you want but it will not snatch away that ownership and it will not bring you the wonderful fruits they offer...which includes resurrection.

What is gravity?