God’s Love

[Dicky Underpants]

More like welcome back horsethorn!

Seconded!

[Outrider]

Despite your more subtle attitude to the NT, you're inclined to be as simplistic about the OT as BA. The early part of the OT depicts God as a homicidal monster, who delivers an incredibly boring set of rules which determine 'righteous' behaviour. But other parts of the OT are extremely varied in their depictions of God.

At the risk of over-simplifying, though, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. There are two problems - one is that psychopathic jealous depiction and the seemingly arbitrary and horrendous punishments alongside the blithe acceptance of equally horrific acts from 'chosen' people. The other is massive disconnect in depiction of the Old Testament God and the New Testament God, given that they're both supposed to be (according to conventional Christian interpretations, as I understand it) the same ageless, perfect being. That doesn't add up - I might emphasise the barbarism elements of the Old Testament for the effect of that contrast, but I don't invent them.

The NT, likewise, is very varied in its depictions of God, and you rightly point out the appalling activities and attitudes it appears to justify in certain texts. Unlike BA though, you don't indulge in doublethink, and claim in one breath that you "accept the NT", and then sotto voce mention the parts of it you don't accept, hoping that people won't actually notice. He has criteria for what he accepts, but they seem to depend as much on personal fancies as they do on any sort of scholarship (crying 'Midrash' seems to be his get-out tactic).

Consistency when you don't accept any of the claims is easy - I have to avoid discounting all of the ideas because of the source! There're a lot of good messages in the New Testament - certainly more than in the Old Testament, it seems to me - and it's easy to overlook those good messages amidst discounting the bad parts and the fairy-tale embellishments.

O.

[Dicky Underpants]

Despite your more subtle attitude to the NT, you're inclined to be as simplistic about the OT as BA. The early part of the OT depicts God as a homicidal monster, who delivers an incredibly boring set of rules which determine 'righteous' behaviour. But other parts of the OT are extremely varied in their depictions of God.

At the risk of over-simplifying, though, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. There are two problems - one is that psychopathic jealous depiction and the seemingly arbitrary and horrendous punishments alongside the blithe acceptance of equally horrific acts from 'chosen' people. The other is massive disconnect in depiction of the Old Testament God and the New Testament God, given that they're both supposed to be (according to conventional Christian interpretations, as I understand it) the same ageless, perfect being. That doesn't add up - I might emphasise the barbarism elements of the Old Testament for the effect of that contrast, but I don't invent them.

The NT, likewise, is very varied in its depictions of God, and you rightly point out the appalling activities and attitudes it appears to justify in certain texts. Unlike BA though, you don't indulge in doublethink, and claim in one breath that you "accept the NT", and then sotto voce mention the parts of it you don't accept, hoping that people won't actually notice. He has criteria for what he accepts, but they seem to depend as much on personal fancies as they do on any sort of scholarship (crying 'Midrash' seems to be his get-out tactic).

Consistency when you don't accept any of the claims is easy - I have to avoid discounting all of the ideas because of the source! There're a lot of good messages in the New Testament - certainly more than in the Old Testament, it seems to me - and it's easy to overlook those good messages amidst discounting the bad parts and the fairy-tale embellishments.

O.

If I were a believer of some sort, I could no doubt go on and on about this. However, I'm only attempting to be a bit objective about these things. I don't see a 'massive disconnect between the OT and the New'. I see an assemblage of extremely varying texts, putting forward a variety of viewpoints. I certainly don't see a picture of the 'same, ageless, perfect being' anywhere - so I certainly agree with you in this. In the NT we have Jesus saying 'Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire' as well as saying 'Blessed are the meek,for they shall inherit the earth' (And you should note, that the OT never - ever- speaks of an afterlife of eternal torment, insofar as it speaks of an afterlife at all).
And when Micah in the OT says "What does the Lord require of you, but to do justly and to love mercy, and walk humbly with your God" - I don't see that as so very far from the gentler words of Jesus. Who, as I've pointed out, doesn't always seem so gentle.

However, since neither of us appears to be a believer, these are perhaps only academic points, which others may  or may not be pleased to take up.

[BashfulAnthony]

Despite your more subtle attitude to the NT, you're inclined to be as simplistic about the OT as BA. The early part of the OT depicts God as a homicidal monster, who delivers an incredibly boring set of rules which determine 'righteous' behaviour. But other parts of the OT are extremely varied in their depictions of God.

At the risk of over-simplifying, though, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. There are two problems - one is that psychopathic jealous depiction and the seemingly arbitrary and horrendous punishments alongside the blithe acceptance of equally horrific acts from 'chosen' people. The other is massive disconnect in depiction of the Old Testament God and the New Testament God, given that they're both supposed to be (according to conventional Christian interpretations, as I understand it) the same ageless, perfect being. That doesn't add up - I might emphasise the barbarism elements of the Old Testament for the effect of that contrast, but I don't invent them.

The NT, likewise, is very varied in its depictions of God, and you rightly point out the appalling activities and attitudes it appears to justify in certain texts. Unlike BA though, you don't indulge in doublethink, and claim in one breath that you "accept the NT", and then sotto voce mention the parts of it you don't accept, hoping that people won't actually notice. He has criteria for what he accepts, but they seem to depend as much on personal fancies as they do on any sort of scholarship (crying 'Midrash' seems to be his get-out tactic).

Consistency when you don't accept any of the claims is easy - I have to avoid discounting all of the ideas because of the source! There're a lot of good messages in the New Testament - certainly more than in the Old Testament, it seems to me - and it's easy to overlook those good messages amidst discounting the bad parts and the fairy-tale embellishments.

O.

If I were a believer of some sort, I could no doubt go on and on about this. However, I'm only attempting to be a bit objective about these things. I don't see a 'massive disconnect between the OT and the New'. I see an assemblage of extremely varying texts, putting forward a variety of viewpoints. I certainly don't see a picture of the 'same, ageless, perfect being' anywhere - so I certainly agree with you in this. In the NT we have Jesus saying 'Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire' as well as saying 'Blessed are the meek,for they shall inherit the earth' (And you should note, that the OT never - ever- speaks of an afterlife of eternal torment, insofar as it speaks of an afterlife at all).
And when Micah in the OT says "What does the Lord require of you, but to do justly and to love mercy, and walk humbly with your God" - I don't see that as so very far from the gentler words of Jesus. Who, as I've pointed out, doesn't always seem so gentle.

However, since neither of us appears to be a believer, these are perhaps only academic points, which others may  or may not be pleased to take up.

There is a huge, fundamental, difference between the two:  their totally divergent representation of God.  The two couldn't be more disconnected than that.

[NicholasMarks]

The New Testament is Jesus Christ showing us and telling us about the true nature of his father. Jesus is following a path of righteousness that delivers us all out of our sinful state and begins, within us, a repair program that God's righteous laws automatically promote. This is a new covenant because previously Almighty God had simply tried to guide his people through all the chaos of a wild world until they were advanced enough to understand the refinements of righteousness as shown by Jesus, who showed us a science that will endure right through till the end of eternity. Courtesy of God's love.

[Alan Burns]

He referred to the Old Testament where love is between one man and his purchased bride, one man and his wife and her maid, one man and his daughters, his concubines, the men attacking his house and his daughters, and one man and his neighbour, but never ever two men or two women because that would be wrongness.

I think you are confusing love with sex in this statement.

[floo]

The New Testament is Jesus Christ showing us and telling us about the true nature of his father. Jesus is following a path of righteousness that delivers us all out of our sinful state and begins, within us, a repair program that God's righteous laws automatically promote. This is a new covenant because previously Almighty God had simply tried to guide his people through all the chaos of a wild world until they were advanced enough to understand the refinements of righteousness as shown by Jesus, who showed us a science that will endure right through till the end of eternity. Courtesy of God's love.

The definition of science according to the Oxford English dictionary is:-

The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment:

I really don't see how on earth that relates in any shape or form to Jesus?

[NicholasMarks]

The New Testament is Jesus Christ showing us and telling us about the true nature of his father. Jesus is following a path of righteousness that delivers us all out of our sinful state and begins, within us, a repair program that God's righteous laws automatically promote. This is a new covenant because previously Almighty God had simply tried to guide his people through all the chaos of a wild world until they were advanced enough to understand the refinements of righteousness as shown by Jesus, who showed us a science that will endure right through till the end of eternity. Courtesy of God's love.

The definition of science according to the Oxford English dictionary is:-

The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment:


I really don't see how on earth that relates in any shape or form to Jesus?

I'll explain it to you Floo...The entire work of modern science is largely proven by experiment and systematic exploration and it all comes to one conclusion...All the forces of the universe must unify into one understanding. So, armed with all this science we can take the next step...everything unifies from within the Holy Bible and in particular by using a material that both Almighty God, Jesus Christ and modern science says exists...dynamic energy.

[floo]

The New Testament is Jesus Christ showing us and telling us about the true nature of his father. Jesus is following a path of righteousness that delivers us all out of our sinful state and begins, within us, a repair program that God's righteous laws automatically promote. This is a new covenant because previously Almighty God had simply tried to guide his people through all the chaos of a wild world until they were advanced enough to understand the refinements of righteousness as shown by Jesus, who showed us a science that will endure right through till the end of eternity. Courtesy of God's love.

The definition of science according to the Oxford English dictionary is:-

The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment:


I really don't see how on earth that relates in any shape or form to Jesus?

I'll explain it to you Floo...The entire work of modern science is largely proven by experiment and systematic exploration and it all comes to one conclusion...All the forces of the universe must unify into one understanding. So, armed with all this science we can take the next step...everything unifies from within the Holy Bible and in particular by using a material that both Almighty God, Jesus Christ and modern science says exists...dynamic energy.

Where is the term 'dynamic energy ' used in the Bible, I must have missed that one? Please give me chapter and verse.

[NicholasMarks]

The New Testament is Jesus Christ showing us and telling us about the true nature of his father. Jesus is following a path of righteousness that delivers us all out of our sinful state and begins, within us, a repair program that God's righteous laws automatically promote. This is a new covenant because previously Almighty God had simply tried to guide his people through all the chaos of a wild world until they were advanced enough to understand the refinements of righteousness as shown by Jesus, who showed us a science that will endure right through till the end of eternity. Courtesy of God's love.

The definition of science according to the Oxford English dictionary is:-

The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment:


I really don't see how on earth that relates in any shape or form to Jesus?

I'll explain it to you Floo...The entire work of modern science is largely proven by experiment and systematic exploration and it all comes to one conclusion...All the forces of the universe must unify into one understanding. So, armed with all this science we can take the next step...everything unifies from within the Holy Bible and in particular by using a material that both Almighty God, Jesus Christ and modern science says exists...dynamic energy.

Where is the term 'dynamic energy ' used in the Bible, I must have missed that one? Please give me chapter and verse.

Isaiah 40:26 NWT or if you prefer God's mighty power...KJV...but it is much more than that...it is God's fountain of living waters...a cure all of all distress because it gives birth to resurrection and everlasting life besides the science that gives us stars and science itself.

[floo]

The New Testament is Jesus Christ showing us and telling us about the true nature of his father. Jesus is following a path of righteousness that delivers us all out of our sinful state and begins, within us, a repair program that God's righteous laws automatically promote. This is a new covenant because previously Almighty God had simply tried to guide his people through all the chaos of a wild world until they were advanced enough to understand the refinements of righteousness as shown by Jesus, who showed us a science that will endure right through till the end of eternity. Courtesy of God's love.

The definition of science according to the Oxford English dictionary is:-

The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment:


I really don't see how on earth that relates in any shape or form to Jesus?

I'll explain it to you Floo...The entire work of modern science is largely proven by experiment and systematic exploration and it all comes to one conclusion...All the forces of the universe must unify into one understanding. So, armed with all this science we can take the next step...everything unifies from within the Holy Bible and in particular by using a material that both Almighty God, Jesus Christ and modern science says exists...dynamic energy.

Where is the term 'dynamic energy ' used in the Bible, I must have missed that one? Please give me chapter and verse.

Isaiah 40:26 NWT or if you prefer God's mighty power...KJV...but it is much more than that...it is God's fountain of living waters...a cure all of all distress because it gives birth to resurrection and everlasting life besides the science that gives us stars and science itself.

So you have made up the term 'dynamic energy', to explain your take on the Bible! The 'power' you attribute to the deity certainly doesn't cure all distress in people including believers, that is a naughty porkie, NM!

[NicholasMarks]

The New Testament is Jesus Christ showing us and telling us about the true nature of his father. Jesus is following a path of righteousness that delivers us all out of our sinful state and begins, within us, a repair program that God's righteous laws automatically promote. This is a new covenant because previously Almighty God had simply tried to guide his people through all the chaos of a wild world until they were advanced enough to understand the refinements of righteousness as shown by Jesus, who showed us a science that will endure right through till the end of eternity. Courtesy of God's love.

The definition of science according to the Oxford English dictionary is:-

The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment:


I really don't see how on earth that relates in any shape or form to Jesus?

I'll explain it to you Floo...The entire work of modern science is largely proven by experiment and systematic exploration and it all comes to one conclusion...All the forces of the universe must unify into one understanding. So, armed with all this science we can take the next step...everything unifies from within the Holy Bible and in particular by using a material that both Almighty God, Jesus Christ and modern science says exists...dynamic energy.

Where is the term 'dynamic energy ' used in the Bible, I must have missed that one? Please give me chapter and verse.

Isaiah 40:26 NWT or if you prefer God's mighty power...KJV...but it is much more than that...it is God's fountain of living waters...a cure all of all distress because it gives birth to resurrection and everlasting life besides the science that gives us stars and science itself.

So you have made up the term 'dynamic energy', to explain your take on the Bible! The 'power' you attribute to the deity certainly doesn't cure all distress in people including believers, that is a naughty porkie, NM!

I'm afraid that your take on the Holy Bible will help no one Floo. The currently accepted teaching of Jesus Christ which is contaminated by iniquity has helped millions because iniquity cannot prevent righteousness from radiating out from Jesus' accurate word but accuracy is the difference between iniquity and righteous truth and it is here where Jesus delivers all his promises...that is why he stated 'I am the way, the truth, and the life'...and there is a wonderful science behind his accurate word...embodied within God's love.

[floo]

'God's love' was very much in evidence in Paris yesterday wasn't it? What was the evil b*stard doing whilst that terrorist attack was going on, masturbating in excitement? Yes that is a crude comment, I agree, but the idea of a loving deity is a HUGE JOKE. One wonders if you and some others on this forum have ever read the not so good book?

[BashfulAnthony]

'God's love' was very much in evidence in Paris yesterday wasn't it? What was the evil b*stard doing whilst that terrorist attack was going on, masturbating in excitement? Yes that is a crude comment, I agree, but the idea of a loving deity is a HUGE JOKE. One wonders if you some others on this forum have ever read the not so good book?

An hysterical and disgraceful post. You ought to be ashamed of your lack of control  -  not to mention your ignorance.  Perhaps someone in your family should try and sort out your "difficulties!"

And just for your information, here are just some of the Biblical references which talk of God's love  ( though you already know them, having read the Bible "many times"  -  not!)    Just to mention one quote, from the New Testament, and one I have quoted many times on here:  Jesus said: "It is my commandment that you love one another."  Well, Floo, any comment?  Thought not!
 

As I pointed out to Shaker last night when he was defending  (     ) Floo,  when invited to discuss her opinions, she stays silent, simply reiterating her tired mantra.  Let's see if I'm correct, and whether she responds to my offer to read, and maybe comment, on the site I suggested.  Nobody hold their breath!  Remember, Floo, you can't hate what you don't believe in  -  silly!

[Outrider]

He referred to the Old Testament where love is between one man and his purchased bride, one man and his wife and her maid, one man and his daughters, his concubines, the men attacking his house and his daughters, and one man and his neighbour, but never ever two men or two women because that would be wrongness.

I think you are confusing love with sex in this statement.

I'm not sure the Old Testament is subtle enough to differentiate.

O.

[Outrider]

An hysterical and disgraceful post. You ought to be ashamed of your lack of control  -  not to mention your ignorance.  Perhaps someone in your family should try and sort out your "difficulties!"

The problem of evil remains one of the fundamental flaws in a classical Christian conception of  reality. It's a blunt characterisation, but it's neither 'hysterical' nor 'disgraceful'. You know what's disgraceful - the fact that you followed up an enquiry about 'where was God when hundreds of people were slain in his name' with a suggestion that someone should 'sort out your difficulties'.

And just for your information, here are just some of the Biblical references which talk of God's love  ( though you already know them, having read the Bible "many times"  -  not!)    Just to mention one quote, from the New Testament, and one I have quoted many times on here:  Jesus said: "It is my commandment that you love one another."  Well, Floo, any comment?  Thought not!

And? How did those verse help anyone last night in Paris? What about the equally violent verses that you've selectedly opted not to cite this time?
 
O.

[Gonnagle]

Dear World,

ToE, GUT, Dynamic Energy.

Gonnagle.

[NicholasMarks]

Outrider:

And? How did those verse help anyone last night in Paris? What about the equally violent verses that you've selectedly opted not to cite this time?
 
O.

Reply in Ontological Argument #66

Hi Gonnagle...hope you are well??

[BashfulAnthony]

An hysterical and disgraceful post. You ought to be ashamed of your lack of control  -  not to mention your ignorance.  Perhaps someone in your family should try and sort out your "difficulties!"

The problem of evil remains one of the fundamental flaws in a classical Christian conception of  reality. It's a blunt characterisation, but it's neither 'hysterical' nor 'disgraceful'. You know what's disgraceful - the fact that you followed up an enquiry about 'where was God when hundreds of people were slain in his name' with a suggestion that someone should 'sort out your difficulties'.

And just for your information, here are just some of the Biblical references which talk of God's love  ( though you already know them, having read the Bible "many times"  -  not!)    Just to mention one quote, from the New Testament, and one I have quoted many times on here:  Jesus said: "It is my commandment that you love one another."  Well, Floo, any comment?  Thought not!

And? How did those verse help anyone last night in Paris? What about the equally violent verses that you've selectedly opted not to cite this time?
 
O.

Many people will find some solace in God's love in times of travail.. I know of no verses where Jesus in any sense advocated violence.  Can you tell me which you are referring to?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Nicholas,

Great to see you posting again, you were missed.

Gonnagle.

[NicholasMarks]

Dear Nicholas,

Great to see you posting again, you were missed.

Gonnagle.

Thanks for that Gonnagle...I haven't been wasting my time and have a whole host of counter claims for atheists to chew on in my toolbag...but we will have to see how they develop.

I reckon I am the only person capable here to make Floo a confirmed Christian.

[Outrider]

Many people will find some solace in God's love in times of travail.. I know of no verses where Jesus in any sense advocated violence.  Can you tell me which you are referring to?

Many people will find some solace is Allah, in Ghanesh, in Yahweh. Many found solace, no doubt, in Heimdall, in Artemis, in Thoth. Doesn't make any of them true. At the same time, many have found reason to kill, enslave and diminish in those ideas, too.

Jesus is God, right? Check out the Old Testament - fire, brimstone, slaughter, devastation... Jesus might talk pretty, but God's more than happy to lay down a good smite when he feels like it.

O.

[NicholasMarks]

Many people will find some solace in God's love in times of travail.. I know of no verses where Jesus in any sense advocated violence.  Can you tell me which you are referring to?

Jesus is God, right? Check out the Old Testament - fire, brimstone, slaughter, devastation...

O.

Jesus is the son of God...It is plainly stated over and over and is the first error made by iniquity...and, as I might have mentioned before, accuracy is so important when it comes to righteous truth.

 

[Outrider]

Jesus is the son of God...It is plainly stated over and over and is the first error made by iniquity...and, as I might have mentioned accuracy is so important when it comes to righteous truth.

Is Jesus God or isn't he? You might have mentioned accuracy once or twice, but equally fervent readers have spent just as much time as you poring over this and come to different conclusions as though it wasn't actually as clear-cut as you claim.

One of the ways of making something clearer is to find a way to test it - you know, like the science you keep claiming this is, but keep failing to delivery on.

O.

[jjohnjil]

Dear Nicholas,

Great to see you posting again, you were missed.

Gonnagle.

Thanks for that Gonnagle...I haven't been wasting my time and have a whole host of counter claims for atheists to chew on in my toolbag...but we will have to see how they develop.

I reckon I am the only person capable here to make Floo a confirmed Christian.

I can guess what those new tools in your toolbag have written all over them, Nick

Accurate .... Dynamic .... Energy ...Righteous  .... Resurrection     

Oh, and there'll be a copy 'Sparky's Manual on how to sit under the end of Rainbows'
!
It's great having the forum's own Mr Bean back though