God’s Love

[NicholasMarks]

Abraham was evil to have tried to sacrifice his son to his god!

Through Abraham we know just how hard and how torturous it was for both Abraham and Almighty God to put the lives of their much loved sons on the torture rack. If Abraham had not been prepared to obey Almighty God then maybe God wouldn't have sent his own son to give us the guidance we desperately need/ed, then, and now, which includes resurrection.

When you are dealing directly with an all knowing God who has given you great faith then life and death is a matter of our level of evil. A righteous person might see things differently to those who claim that righteousness is evil and evil is righteousness...and resurrection God's tool to rectify the worlds many injustices. A lesson we should consider now...when WW3 is knocking on everybodies door.

[BeRational]

Through Abraham we know just how hard and how torturous it was for both Abraham and Almighty God to put the lives of their much loved sons on the torture rack. If Abraham had not been prepared to obey Almighty God then maybe God wouldn't have sent his own son to give us the guidance we desperately need/ed, then, and now, which includes resurrection.

When you are dealing directly with an all knowing God who has given you great faith then life and death is a matter of our level of evil. A righteous person might see things differently to those who claim that righteousness is evil and evil is righteousness...and resurrection God's tool to rectify the worlds many injustices. A lesson we should consider now...when WW3 is knocking on everybodies door.

If it is all knowing, why did it need to test Abraham?

Surely it knew the outcome without causing the harm that it di?

[floo]

Through Abraham we know just how hard and how torturous it was for both Abraham and Almighty God to put the lives of their much loved sons on the torture rack. If Abraham had not been prepared to obey Almighty God then maybe God wouldn't have sent his own son to give us the guidance we desperately need/ed, then, and now, which includes resurrection.

When you are dealing directly with an all knowing God who has given you great faith then life and death is a matter of our level of evil. A righteous person might see things differently to those who claim that righteousness is evil and evil is righteousness...and resurrection God's tool to rectify the worlds many injustices. A lesson we should consider now...when WW3 is knocking on everybodies door.

Oh come on NM, if you had a child and you firmly believed the deity was asking you to sacrifice them, would you really attempt to do so? No sane, loving parent would put the wishes of any deity before the safety of their child!

[Shaker]

Oh come on NM, if you had a child and you firmly believed the deity was asking you to sacrifice them, would you really attempt to do so? No sane, loving parent would put the wishes of any deity before the safety of their child!

Christopher Hitchens gave the definitive response to this one. Bashers wouldn't like the full answer so I'll just say that the second word is 'you.'

[floo]

Christopher Hitchens gave the definitive response to this one. Bashers wouldn't like the full answer so I'll just say that the second word is 'you.'

I might have been tempted to use that word too if presented with such a scenario!

[NicholasMarks]

I might have been tempted to use that word too if presented with such a scenario!

It doesn't matter how you look at it, this act is the key force behind all the major religions...and I can see that a very faithful servant of the highest authority in the universe might want to show Almighty God that he has so much faith that this act was acceptable to him even though it went against every fibre of his body. It is likely that this being so close to God's Creation that the faithful had a strong memory of Almighty God's great power. No one today would be excused such an act but times were different then and this emotional act stimulated many to stay in the faith and follow it for the next 10000 (??) years.

More recently though Almighty God had another, similar decision to make...should he send his own now, most famous servant amongst the wolves that ruled the Jews to deliver a message of redemption, resurrection and everlasting life...Abraham showed him that it would help some to redemption...and so there is a direct analogy between the two events...events that millions are very grateful of.

Hitchens wont help you to grasp the hardest lessons in life like, what is evolution?? or, how does the living cell work??...nor, how can we repair from all these many genetic malfunctions that have only one hidden cause?? If he could he would want all your money before he told you...All Almighty God and Jesus want is your obedience to their righteous laws...but it appears that's too much to ask.

[BashfulAnthony]

Christopher Hitchens gave the definitive response to this one. Bashers wouldn't like the full answer so I'll just say that the second word is 'you.'

I can't possibly guess what you mean, being of a sensitive nature!   

[Outrider]

It doesn't matter how you look at it, this act is the key force behind all the major religions...

And that expectation that the wishes of God should be put before the inherited urge to see our children grow and the social bonds of family is a telling note in the authoritarian nature of Abrahamic religion, whether gods are real or not.

...and I can see that a very faithful servant of the highest authority in the universe might want to show Almighty God that he has so much faith that this act was acceptable to him even though it went against every fibre of his body.

Whereas we can see that only a psychopath would want people to make that choice.

It is likely that this being so close to God's Creation that the faithful had a strong memory of Almighty God's great power.

I'm not sure the 3,000 year difference between then and now makes much of a difference in the appreciation of the ~13.8 billion years of the universe.

No one today would be excused such an act but times were different then and this emotional act stimulated many to stay in the faith and follow it for the next 10000 (??) years.

If morality has changed since then, why are we still supposed to look at the books written then as a source for our moral guidance?

More recently though Almighty God had another, similar decision to make...should he send his own now, most famous servant amongst the wolves that ruled the Jews to deliver a message of redemption, resurrection and everlasting life...

Was it a servant, or was it him?

Abraham showed him that it would help some to redemption...and so there is a direct analogy between the two events...events that millions are very grateful of.

No, Abraham showed him that the God of the Jews was a psychopath. Don't get me wrong, a wise man might well choose to comply with the instructions of an all-powerful psychopath, but out of fear, not agreement.

Hitchens wont help you to grasp the hardest lessons in life like, what is evolution??

I think Christopher Hitchens had a reasonable grasp of it, but it's not really that difficult a topic to get a handle on, especially not when compared to the likes of quantum physics, neuro-biology and cosmology.

or, how does the living cell work??

How? Again, biology has a reasonably good grasp of the majority of the organelles that make cells work - most of the difficult work in biology is how to harness that, or how to deal with instances where systemic malfunctions occur.

...nor, how can we repair from all these many genetic malfunctions that have only one hidden cause?? If he could he would want all your money before he told you...All Almighty God and Jesus want is your obedience to their righteous laws...but it appears that's too much to ask.

You can have my money, but no-one gets unequivocal obedience, that abrogation of respsonsibility is what allows the atrocities of ISIS, Stalin, Pot and Hitler.

O.

[NicholasMarks]

Outrider:

Jesus Christ showed us Almighty God's true nature. It is caring, loving and the focus of millions over many generations. It takes into account all the hostility of all the powerful leaders past and present and tells us not to worry...all these things must come to pass...and we...the common people...who have no voice because of the nature of evil hostility will have one expression that no one can interfere with if we follow Jesus accurately. Resurrection, supplied by Jesus' righteous teaching....and made possible because the universe is the product of an invisible, superabundant, indestructible, dynamic energy, and by following those righteous laws we have harnessed an indestructible spirit with our  righteous profile stamped upon it ...and the proof...Jesus Christ.

[Outrider]

Jesus Christ showed us Almighty God's true nature.

So were the Old Testament authors lying?

It is caring, loving and the focus of millions over many generations.

Caring, loving beings don't make loyalty tests out of a willingness to kill your own children. Caring, loving beings don't destroy entire cities. Caring, loving beings don't endorse homophobia, misogyny, slavery or genocide.

It takes into account all the hostility of all the powerful leaders past and present and tells us not to worry...all these things must come to pass...and we...the common people...who have no voice because of the nature of evil hostility will have one expression that no one can interfere with if we follow Jesus accurately.

That sort of mindless, accepting fatalism is perhaps the worst part of this. Why don't you have a voice? All these things don't have to come to pass - there are religious schools that teach you to be sheep in the face of controlling influences with the promise 'it'll all be better next time'. There is no 'next time'. This is your life, you get one shot, don't waste it on gutless complicity with evil, because you won't get that time back.

Resurrection, supplied by Jesus' righteous teaching....and made possible because the universe is the product of an invisible, superabundant, indestructible, dynamic energy, and by following those righteous laws we have harnessed an indestructible spirit with our  righteous profile stamped upon it ...and the proof...Jesus Christ.

You still fail to understand the meaning of the word proof. If you have to resort to vague, unmeasurable concepts like 'spirit' and 'righteousness' to explain the mechanics of your idea, then your idea sits somewhere between nonsense and wishful thinking.

O.

[NicholasMarks]

Outrider:

I know when I am being chased around in circles Outrider. It is a trick of the bully to overpower the emotions of his target. It is, interestingly, the same tactics that causes cancer both in the outside world, amongst communities, and in the internal world of the body where the owner of all those body cells continually wastes their nervous strength required for genetic health...still it is all lost on you so I  will wait for your next unbridled attack with anticipation.

[Outrider]

I know when I am being chased around in circles Outrider.

I might well be chasing you in circles, but I'm chasing. That means the 'going round in circles' is down to you - you choose where to run to. Of course, if you had any justification for your case you'd stand and deliver it, rather than constantly having to try to run away back to your assertions.

It is a trick of the bully to overpower the emotions of his target.

I'm not the one that's suggesting we should accept evil in the world and wait for the next one. I'm not the cheerleader for a god that says 'Kill your son or I won't like you any more.... psych!'. I'm not in favour of baseless philosophies that lead to suicide bombers. I'm not 'bullying' you, flower, I'm rebutting your baseless assertions.

It is, interestingly, the same tactics that causes cancer both in the outside world, amongst communities, and in the internal world of the body where the owner of all those body cells continually wastes their nervous strength required for genetic health...still it is all lost on you so I  will wait for your next unbridled attack with anticipation.

Cancer, as a biological ailment, is not in any way comparable to 'bullying', and that you think it is more than adequately demonstrates your grasp of science.  As to the idea that you're under 'unbridled attack', I have repeatedly pointed out to you that I admire your intentions in coming here, I've repeatedly acceded that there are many good ethical policies espoused in places in the Bible, particularly the New Testament. You are confusing my failure to accede to every bit of nonsense you spout with 'unbridled attack'.

I'd say 'get some perspective', but if you could manage that we wouldn't be in this position in the first place.

O.

[BashfulAnthony]

So were the Old Testament authors lying?

Caring, loving beings don't make loyalty tests out of a willingness to kill your own children. Caring, loving beings don't destroy entire cities. Caring, loving beings don't endorse homophobia, misogyny, slavery or genocide.

That sort of mindless, accepting fatalism is perhaps the worst part of this. Why don't you have a voice? All these things don't have to come to pass - there are religious schools that teach you to be sheep in the face of controlling influences with the promise 'it'll all be better next time'. There is no 'next time'. This is your life, you get one shot, don't waste it on gutless complicity with evil, because you won't get that time back.

You still fail to understand the meaning of the word proof. If you have to resort to vague, unmeasurable concepts like 'spirit' and 'righteousness' to explain the mechanics of your idea, then your idea sits somewhere between nonsense and wishful thinking.

O.

Outrider,

"So were the Old Testament authors lying?|

Not knowingly, I don't think.  They just got it wrong.  But you have to bear in mind, that much of the OT was written when the Israelites were being oppressed, and to write of a vengeful God, who would "smite" their enemies, was a natural human response.

[floo]

Outrider:

I know when I am being chased around in circles Outrider. It is a trick of the bully to overpower the emotions of his target. It is, interestingly, the same tactics that causes cancer both in the outside world, amongst communities, and in the internal world of the body where the owner of all those body cells continually wastes their nervous strength required for genetic health...still it is all lost on you so I  will wait for your next unbridled attack with anticipation.

You aren't being bullied, all anyone is trying to do is to get you to answer the questions put to you when you make assertions you can't support with evidence. That is a thankless task!

[BashfulAnthony]

You aren't being bullied, all anyone is trying to do is to get you to answer the questions put to you when you make assertions you can't support with evidence.

This is not a court of law, when you are interrogated by the "prosecution."  And yes, he is bullied, and not the least because he does not respond as vigorously as he might.  People take advantage of that attitude. 

[NicholasMarks]

I might well be chasing you in circles, but I'm chasing. That means the 'going round in circles' is down to you - you choose where to run to. Of course, if you had any justification for your case you'd stand and deliver it, rather than constantly having to try to run away back to your assertions.

I'm not the one that's suggesting we should accept evil in the world and wait for the next one. I'm not the cheerleader for a god that says 'Kill your son or I won't like you any more.... psych!'. I'm not in favour of baseless philosophies that lead to suicide bombers. I'm not 'bullying' you, flower, I'm rebutting your baseless assertions.

Cancer, as a biological ailment, is not in any way comparable to 'bullying', and that you think it is more than adequately demonstrates your grasp of science.  As to the idea that you're under 'unbridled attack', I have repeatedly pointed out to you that I admire your intentions in coming here, I've repeatedly acceded that there are many good ethical policies espoused in places in the Bible, particularly the New Testament. You are confusing my failure to accede to every bit of nonsense you spout with 'unbridled attack'.

I'd say 'get some perspective', but if you could manage that we wouldn't be in this position in the first place.

O.

In the absence of anyone knowing what cancer is I am more than free to draw the analogy between bullying, nervous waste and cancer...as revealed by a study of the Holy Bible and the opposing science of all oppression.

For evolution and cancer to have any line of logic it must be conceded that it is the expression of the living cells nervous behavioiur that is at the route of genetic change. Reaching out for various needs alters the genetic code as does selfishness, vanity, greed and lack of caring for our fellow man.

It makes sense then that reaching out for Jesus Christ who tells us all about this invisible emotional strength alters the genetic code by soothing, refreshing, upbuilding and caring for our spiritual health in the way Jesus tells us...and we are then at the starting point of a space-age science that will enable all the deservers of righteous hope who can then go forward towards all of Jesus' righteous promises of which, resurrection will play a crucial part..

[floo]

In the absence of anyone knowing what cancer is I am more than free to draw the analogy between bullying, nervous waste and cancer...as revealed by a study of the Holy Bible and the opposing science of all oppression.

For evolution and cancer to have any line of logic it must be conceded that it is the expression of the living cells nervous behavioiur that is at the route of genetic change. Reaching out for various needs alters the genetic code as does selfishness, vanity, greed and lack of caring for our fellow man.

It makes sense then that reaching out for Jesus Christ who tells us all about this invisible emotional strength alters the genetic code by soothing, refreshing, upbuilding and caring for our spiritual health in the way Jesus tells us...and we are then at the starting point of a space-age science that will enable all the deservers of righteous hope can go forward towards all of Jesus' righteous promises of which, resurrection will play a crucial part..

Oh for pity's sake NM, your imagination has really run away with itself this time! If you take exception to people challenging your posts then maybe you should seriously think whether this forum is for you. I promise you that your posts will not go unchallenged when you come out with the sort of statements and assertions, which make the mind boggle!

[Outrider]

"So were the Old Testament authors lying?|

Not knowingly, I don't think.  They just got it wrong.

In another conversation I might well have offered that as a suggestion

But you have to bear in mind, that much of the OT was written when the Israelites were being oppressed, and to write of a vengeful God, who would "smite" their enemies, was a natural human response.

And that's entirely believable, it makes the Old Testament a product of a very human idea of gods, and both explains the work and it's disconnect from reality.

To a lesser extent I see the same disconnect with the New Testament; the philosophy therein is also very mixed. I know that you suggest some of the authors 'adjusted' their take on the story to suit their preconceptions, so how do you decide which bits are 'genuine Jesus', which bits are coloured by the authors and which (if any) are wholly fabricated?

O.

[floo]

I don't understand why some think the NT is anymore credible than the OT?

[BashfulAnthony]

In another conversation I might well have offered that as a suggestion

And that's entirely believable, it makes the Old Testament a product of a very human idea of gods, and both explains the work and it's disconnect from reality.

To a lesser extent I see the same disconnect with the New Testament; the philosophy therein is also very mixed. I know that you suggest some of the authors 'adjusted' their take on the story to suit their preconceptions, so how do you decide which bits are 'genuine Jesus', which bits are coloured by the authors and which (if any) are wholly fabricated?

O.

The circumstances in which the NT was put together do not correspond with the situation in OT times.

  The whole study of the Synoptic Problem establishes much of what is most likely authentic;  that and the recognition of the use of midrash.

[Outrider]

The circumstances in which the NT was put together do not correspond with the situation in OT times.

I get that, but whilst they wouldn't be the same motivations presumably the authors of the NT works were human, they had motivations of their own - how do you divest the work of their influence?

The whole study of the Synoptic Problem establishes much of what is most likely authentic;  that and the recognition of the use of midrash.

That's sort of what I'm asking - I know that this is need, but I'm not sure how anyone goes about it. What tests can you do, what criteria can you apply?

For instance - and at the fairly basic end - whilst the motives for the OT (and NT) accounts could be debated, do you think they broadly recount actual events that have been witnessed? All of them? If not, which, and how do you tell?

For me, I think the supernatural elements - the miracles, if you will - are probably a mixture of hyperbole, exaggeration and outright fabrication, but I suspect there's at least the kernel of a humanist, peacable philosophy underlying the depiction of Jesus. I make that determination based on the understanding of modern science that suggests most of the miracles are defined as miracles because we cannot explain any way they could conceivably have happened.

O.

[floo]

I get that, but whilst they wouldn't be the same motivations presumably the authors of the NT works were human, they had motivations of their own - how do you divest the work of their influence?

That's sort of what I'm asking - I know that this is need, but I'm not sure how anyone goes about it. What tests can you do, what criteria can you apply?

For instance - and at the fairly basic end - whilst the motives for the OT (and NT) accounts could be debated, do you think they broadly recount actual events that have been witnessed? All of them? If not, which, and how do you tell?

For me, I think the supernatural elements - the miracles, if you will - are probably a mixture of hyperbole, exaggeration and outright fabrication, but I suspect there's at least the kernel of a humanist, peacable philosophy underlying the depiction of Jesus. I make that determination based on the understanding of modern science that suggests most of the miracles are defined as miracles because we cannot explain any way they could conceivably have happened.

O.

I agree.

[Nearly Sane]

Surely it doesn't need anything about modern science for the miracles to be non natural claims? I mean other than Nick Marks, it's fairly standard Christianity and is for most posting on here who are believers, that this was not just one of Arthur C Clarke's sufficiently advanced species.

[NicholasMarks]

Surely it doesn't need anything about modern science for the miracles to be non natural claims? I mean other than Nick Marks, it's fairly standard Christianity and is for most posting on here who are believers, that this was not just one of Arthur C Clarke's sufficiently advanced species.

The thing about Jesus Christ's miracles is that they were all done by electric energy and remote control. Something we are all very familiar with nowadays. So...how can we say that a far superior people working with a far superior science couldn't achieve the things Jesus requested...and who is to say that Jesus Christ didn't leave the foundation of that science for us to find..and here is the key to it all...that via God's Love, we can harness that force that Jesus harnessed and achieve its very best fruits, which must be that regardless of how we stand today...regardless of what illness and damage we have sustained to date...we can follow Jesus Christ accurately and survive into a new heavens and new Earth where all our problems will be cancelled out because we will be following the science that can achieve that end...the science that built atoms and life and which is therefore a far superior starting point than any other science can be.

Except, of course, Outrider knows better.

[BashfulAnthony]

I get that, but whilst they wouldn't be the same motivations presumably the authors of the NT works were human, they had motivations of their own - how do you divest the work of their influence?

That's sort of what I'm asking - I know that this is need, but I'm not sure how anyone goes about it. What tests can you do, what criteria can you apply?

For instance - and at the fairly basic end - whilst the motives for the OT (and NT) accounts could be debated, do you think they broadly recount actual events that have been witnessed? All of them? If not, which, and how do you tell?

For me, I think the supernatural elements - the miracles, if you will - are probably a mixture of hyperbole, exaggeration and outright fabrication, but I suspect there's at least the kernel of a humanist, peacable philosophy underlying the depiction of Jesus. I make that determination based on the understanding of modern science that suggests most of the miracles are defined as miracles because we cannot explain any way they could conceivably have happened.

O.

I more or less discount the OT in that any actual events are more or less events connected with Jewish history:  many have archaeological authenticity to back them up.  But they are not, in my view, anything about religion, just history.  In the NT such incidents as there were, are not things which happened centuries in the past from the time they were written down, but happened in the life-time of witnesses.   To have made all this up defies credulity; and whereas you might rationalise many, or all, of the miracles, there seems no earthly reason why anybody should have made up the ordinary, day to day happenings of Jesus' life:  the various engagements with the Pharisees, for example.

History is one of my great interests, and recently we celebrated the Battle of Agincourt.  The original account of the battle was accepted for centuries;  but recent study and archaeological investigation has caused the story to be re-written, with considerable revision.  For nearly 150 years Americans have wallowed in George Custer's heroic last stand:  A recent, thorough, archaeological dig has cast such severe doubt on the old version that it now seems certain there was no last stand;  rather, something of a route.  The distribution of remains, weaponry, and particularly used cartridges, suggest a headlong retreat, verging on route.  All this, and many other examples, demonstrates the difficulty of authenticating any historical incidents, even when there are eye-witness accounts. But, critically, and this is my point, though there may be differing accounts of great events in history  -  that is human fallibility, it does not mean these things did not happen.  As with the NT, whatever the interpretation, it is beyond belief that great events are simply made up;  and in the case of Jesus, then corroborated by many, many, others.  I see no reason to doubt the sayings of Jesus;  I do not see why the miracles have to be denied;  maybe rationalised up to a point;  but to fabricate them is not an option for me.  It needs to be borne in mind that all the writings about Jesus were put down when many of His followers were in grave danger from both the Roman and Jewish Authorities.  Why risk your life for a hoax?  Why would so many risk their life to "witness" a lie?   It does not ring true.