Paganism

[Rhiannon]

Because it matters to him, Ippy.

[ippy]

Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.

ippy   

[Owlswing]

Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.

ippy   

I accept that your view of the world, real or otherwise, is a valid to you as mine is to me.

You want to view my belief in a different light go ahead.

I see your belief - non-belief - as being the lazy option! It takes a certain amount of mental effort to sort out one belief path from another, or, in my case, to sort out which fork to take on the belief path that is paganism, yours takes no effort, mental or spiritual, just sit back and say that it is all rubbish and waiy for, or ask the adhernets for, proof of what they believe, knowing full weel that you cannot prove you belief as it is a truism that you cannot prove a negative.

In the case of Paganism it takes even more effort because it is so personal that you have to exercise your brain, your mind, day after day, to find which possible option works for you.

You are as much a bigot as BA, JC, Hope and Sassy or AdO or Gabriella.

Fine! Sit back and wait for death - which is the only thing in life that will finally prove which of us is right!

I am ready to accept that, at death, I may be proved wrong - are you?

[OH MY WORLD!]

And here we go with matty's childish name calling. Nope, you are exactly what you have just called me.

[Owlswing]

Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.

ippy   

. . . realities of life . . .

Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?

I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.

[ippy]

Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.

ippy   

. . . realities of life . . .

Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?

I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.

The following saying of good old Thomas Paine was about some of the outrageous claims of religion but it equally pertains to enough of the elements of Paganism anyway, as follows:

"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it; it raises the question in the mind very easily decided, which is: Is it more probable that nature should out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie"?

I'm not the one claiming anything supernatural, magical or mythical, so what do I need to prove, think about it, in the meantime the ball is firmly in your court Owl.

ippy

[Owlswing]

Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.

ippy   

. . . realities of life . . .

Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?

I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.

The following saying of good old Thomas Paine was about some of the outrageous claims of religion but it equally pertains to enough of the elements of Paganism anyway, as follows:

"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it; it raises the question in the mind very easily decided, which is: Is it more probable that nature should out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie"?

I'm not the one claiming anything supernatural, magical or mythical, so what do I need to prove, think about it, in the meantime the ball is firmly in your court Owl.

ippy

No, it is not! I reject his arguments, in this quote, as I reject yours - you cannot post anything that will, to me, justify your (nom)belief or convince me that my belieffs are any less valid than yours.

[ippy]

Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.

ippy   

. . . realities of life . . .

Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?

I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.

The following saying of good old Thomas Paine was about some of the outrageous claims of religion but it equally pertains to enough of the elements of Paganism anyway, as follows:

"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it; it raises the question in the mind very easily decided, which is: Is it more probable that nature should out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie"?

I'm not the one claiming anything supernatural, magical or mythical, so what do I need to prove, think about it, in the meantime the ball is firmly in your court Owl.

ippy

No, it is not! I reject his arguments, in this quote, as I reject yours - you cannot post anything that will, to me, justify your (nom)belief or convince me that my belieffs are any less valid than yours.

Why?

I'm not suggesting anything magical, mythical or anything superstitious to you, so what's there in that lot to reject?

[Owlswing]

Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.

ippy   

. . . realities of life . . .

Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?

I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.

The following saying of good old Thomas Paine was about some of the outrageous claims of religion but it equally pertains to enough of the elements of Paganism anyway, as follows:

"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it; it raises the question in the mind very easily decided, which is: Is it more probable that nature should out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie"?

I'm not the one claiming anything supernatural, magical or mythical, so what do I need to prove, think about it, in the meantime the ball is firmly in your court Owl.

ippy

No, it is not! I reject his arguments, in this quote, as I reject yours - you cannot post anything that will, to me, justify your (nom)belief or convince me that my belieffs are any less valid than yours.

Why?

I'm not suggesting anything magical, mythical or anything superstitious to you, so what's there in that lot to reject?

Exactly that rejection of anything magical or mythical - superstitious, hmm, what precisely do you classify, in Paganism, as superstitious - i call not walking under ladders superstitious.

[ippy]

Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.

ippy   

. . . realities of life . . .

Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?

I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.

The following saying of good old Thomas Paine was about some of the outrageous claims of religion but it equally pertains to enough of the elements of Paganism anyway, as follows:

"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it; it raises the question in the mind very easily decided, which is: Is it more probable that nature should out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie"?

I'm not the one claiming anything supernatural, magical or mythical, so what do I need to prove, think about it, in the meantime the ball is firmly in your court Owl.

ippy

No, it is not! I reject his arguments, in this quote, as I reject yours - you cannot post anything that will, to me, justify your (nom)belief or convince me that my beliefs are any less valid than yours.

Why?

I'm not suggesting anything magical, mythical or anything superstitious to you, so what's there in that lot to reject?

Exactly that rejection of anything magical or mythical - superstitious, hmm, what precisely do you classify, in Paganism, as superstitious - i call not walking under ladders superstitious.

Rejecting things like the magical, mythical or superstitions since they have no viable evidence, I've ever heard of, that would support them it seems quite rational to me to reject them Owl, why not?

As for strange beliefs I would classify a belief in witches as a bit odd, just for one.

ippy

[Owlswing]

Rejecting things like the magical, mythical or superstitions since they have no viable evidence, I've ever heard of, that would support them it seems quite rational to me to reject them Owl, why not?

As for strange beliefs I would classify a belief in witches as a bit odd, just for one.

ippy

Fine - if that is the way you want it I have no problem with that.

I can see no viable evidence to support your view that deities, witches, miracles (see also spells - they are the same things) or magic do not exist!

Impasse!

[ippy]

Fine - if that is the way you want it I have no problem with that.

I can see no viable evidence to support your view that deities, witches, miracles (see also spells - they are the same things) or magic do not exist!

Impasse!

Don't do what Hope does, start getting into the negative proof area.

You need to find some viable evidence for anything you might wont me to believe, in short, you prove it I'll believe it.

Spells, witches and magic, Owl, you've got yourself a long job if you want to prove there are such things, but good luck with it anyway.

ippy

[Udayana]

These things are essentially ideas generated from our sub-conscious and imagination - can't see what difference it makes if they "exist" or not or if anyone is trying to "prove" them. The value they have is in helping people understand their own feelings and emotions.

Dreams aren't "real" but it doesn't mean they are not useful to us - they are certainly serving some function or other.

[Outrider]

Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?

I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.

I don't think secularism is a belief - it's a system intended to ensure that personal liberty to believe is protected whilst protecting everyone else's liberty to not have someone else's pitch forced onto them.

It may be adopted because of other beliefs, but I'm not sure it's a belief in or of itself.

O.

[ippy]

These things are essentially ideas generated from our sub-conscious and imagination - can't see what difference it makes if they "exist" or not or if anyone is trying to "prove" them. The value they have is in helping people understand their own feelings and emotions.

Dreams aren't "real" but it doesn't mean they are not useful to us - they are certainly serving some function or other.

Yes dreams are according so the current theory are something like a clearing house dumping the daily not that useful excess goods, from the head, so I'm told, I'm not the expert.

I have close family involved with psychology, I get to hear the odd bit here and there, funny that they haven't put me forward for section, yet?

ippy 

[Owlswing]

Don't do what Hope does, start getting into the negative proof area.

You need to find some viable evidence for anything you might wont me to believe, in short, you prove it I'll believe it.

Spells, witches and magic, Owl, you've got yourself a long job if you want to prove there are such things, but good luck with it anyway.

ippy

How many more times have I got to say this - I do not give a tuppeny fuck what you believe or don't believe.

Just do not expect me to give up my belief because YOU don't believe it!

I do not have to prove anything to you or to anyone else as it is all, again I have said this a lot of times, a matter of faith, yours in you rejection/disbelief, mine in my acceptance/belief.

[OH MY WORLD!]

I think you do care matty. Why else would you fly off your handle again and also resort to your offensive gutter language.

[Owlswing]

I think you do care matty. Why else would you fly off your handle again and also resort to your offensive gutter language.

BEEP - The number you have called is busy - please leave a message.

[ippy]

How many more times have I got to say this - I do not give a tuppeny fuck what you believe or don't believe.

Just do not expect me to give up my belief because YOU don't believe it!

I do not have to prove anything to you or to anyone else as it is all, again I have said this a lot of times, a matter of faith, yours in you rejection/disbelief, mine in my acceptance/belief.

I'm not saying anything about anything I believe in.

I don't expect you to give up believing in whatever you want to believe in.

All I'm saying is Just that I don't see the point in believing in anything, especially, where there is no credible evidence to support it and it's unlikely there ever will be, I find this type of belief thing puzzling, it does seem to be strange to me?

It's believing without a good reason to do so, it's irrational.

ippy

[Bubbles]

I'm not saying anything about anything I believe in.

I don't expect you to give up believing in whatever you want to believe in.

All I'm saying is Just that I don't see the point in believing in anything, especially, where there is no credible evidence to support it and it's unlikely there ever will be, I find this type of belief thing puzzling, it does seem to be strange to me?

It's believing without a good reason to do so, it's irrational.

ippy

I think it's more irrational to keep criticising the beliefs of others when they are not trying to convince you in the first place.

You say you don't understand Sriram and now you have started on Owlswing.

Ever thought the problem could be yours?

[ippy]

I think it's more irrational to keep criticising the beliefs of others when they are not trying to convince you in the first place.

You say you don't understand Sriram and now you have started on Owlswing.

Ever thought the problem could be yours?

Why try to debate anything that has no foundation in fact?

I don't think there's many of us that understand nonsense, or need to.

ippy

[ippy]

It's not nonsense, there is more to life than your own philosophy ippy.

If you really lack the imagination to discuss a wide range of topics, why are you here?

A religion and ethics forum isn't going to be discussing facts, but ideas.
Different ideas.

Why do you come here, if you think everything else but facts,  is nonsense?

At least the other posters here have the courage to put forward what they think ( at the risk of being disagreed with) , you just mock.

You never put forward a post about your own ideas.

Unless you are one of those who claim all their ideas are facts 

It looks very much as though this response of yours to my previous post, where I could justifiably have been accused of actually expressing my ideas, may have missed something.

Surly ideas are not worth that much if the person expressing them can only assert whatever idea it is they may be trying to express and are unable to back up these ideas with anything credible.

At the risk of going off of topic and in answer to your suggestion that I never put forward a post about my own ideas, I often bring up my reasons for removing religions from their prominent place in our schools, come to that there shouldn't be a prominent place for religion in any school anywhere. (please note I didn't say religion should be banned from schools).

Unless I'm imagining things the above is an idea that I've, as you say, put forward.

I do from time to time express that some of the things I say are facts, yes I agree, usually in humour aimed at myself but there you go I keep forgetting we all have differing senses of humour.

Contrary to what it seems to me the way you view my posts, I have got to know, almost, a lot of the posters here on this forum and although plainly our views differ, I actually like the great majority of people that post here, I would be quite happy to meet most here and I'm sure I would enjoy their company and perhaps laugh at our differences.

The only person I have detested on the forum was that homophobic Welsh chap, thank goodness he's gone, what a
bigot.

The ridicule: as soon as someone says Jesus says or god teaches us, those types of statement, are plainly ridiculous and deserve any ridicule they get.

Sound, credible evidence would shut me up and I certainly would have to become devout, but be fair Rose the evidence, it's not very likely.

Funnily enough Rose I wish you well and have a good day.

ippy.

[BashfulAnthony]

Ippy,

"... as soon as someone says Jesus says or god teaches us, those types of statement, are plainly ridiculous and deserve any ridicule they get."

I have been told, if I don't like something, I should leave.  I might extend the same, courteous, offer to you.   

Of course, what such offers fail to realise is, that if we all adhered to such, the forum would be empty.    

[ippy]

Ippy,

"... as soon as someone says Jesus says or god teaches us, those types of statement, are plainly ridiculous and deserve any ridicule they get."

I have been told, if I don't like something, I should leave.  I might extend the same, courteous, offer to you.   

Of course, what such offers fail to realise is, that if we all adhered to such, the forum would be empty.   

Oh yes of course that type of thing would be quite reasonabl to you, I think I'll wait for Sass to wriggle, hopefully without quoting the whole of the KJV in the process.

Hope you're feeling better now.

ippy

[BashfulAnthony]

Oh yes of course that type of thing would be quite reasonabl to you, I think I'll wait for Sass to wriggle, hopefully without quoting the whole of the KJV in the process.

Hope you're feeling better now.

ippy

Not wonderful, but thanks for asking.