What should merit a minute or two silence?

[Rhiannon]

That the relatives and forces want recognition is something I support. What I don't like is when that is used by politicians as a PR exercise.

Sure but remembrance day has always been more than recognition of the death of service personnel. It is also about it 'never happening again'. Now I know that hasn't been achieved, but it is always important to ensure this message remains a key part of the commemorations.

In a way I'd be happier if the modern conflicts were separated out into a different event. But then I think that would be even more open to exploitation.

[BashfulAnthony]

Each death, wherever it was and whenever, is a loss to be remembered;  and it matters not to the dead where it is.  To the living, it is just to remember their loss ;  and surely that is all that has to be done..  Simple remembrance.

[Udayana]

Maybe, if we want to it to "never happen again", we should stop respectfully commemorating those that were herded into fighting and dying in wars, mostly for no good reason, and start recognizing the lives of millions upon millions that have died of old age, peaceably  in their own beds?

For some reason the peaceful are held beholden to the bloody on the battlefields.

[Rhiannon]

I guess it's because my parents wouldn't have been able to raise me in peace if their parents' generation hadn't sacrificed themselves.

[BashfulAnthony]

I guess it's because my parents wouldn't have been able to raise me in peace if their parents' generation hadn't sacrificed themse...

Can you just imagine a world now if Hitler and the Nazis had won?

[Udayana]

But you can take that back to the year dot ... probably time to try something else?

[Rhiannon]

Don't get me wrong, I want peace as much as you.

Unfortunately not all our fellow human beings agree.

[Udayana]

That is true.

So probably all the pomp, dressing up and pride are not really to do with "it never happening again" but a setup to ensure the next generation feel obliged to make it happen again if they feel the need arises.

Else why would those who "sacrificed themselves" need any more remembering than those who died breaking their backs in the fields, mills and factories to support their children (also our ancestors) or, say,  in childbirth or who otherwise died, helping our families survive? Or, taking me back to where I started, to those who lived happily and prosperously, dying peacefully in bed, leaving us a world still worth living in?

If Hitler had won, we would probably be remembering the brave Nazis saving us from the murderous fanatics who believed the best way to organize things was to give power for short periods to third rate managers - chosen from a list on a piece of paper.

[Shaker]

Don't get me wrong, I want peace as much as you.

Unfortunately not all our fellow human beings agree.

... which is precisely what stops me from being an absolute pacifist. Well-intentioned, no doubt about that, but no answer to power-crazed, territory-hungry loons.

[Rhiannon]

Don't get me wrong, I want peace as much as you.

Unfortunately not all our fellow human beings agree.

... which is precisely what stops me from being an absolute pacifist. Well-intentioned, no doubt about that, but no answer to power-crazed, territory-hungry loons.

I couldn't agree with you more.

[Rhiannon]

That is true.

So probably all the pomp, dressing up and pride are not really to do with "it never happening again" but a setup to ensure the next generation feel obliged to make it happen again if they feel the need arises.

Else why would those who "sacrificed themselves" need any more remembering than those who died breaking their backs in the fields, mills and factories to support their children (also our ancestors) or, say,  in childbirth or who otherwise died, helping our families survive? Or, taking me back to where I started, to those who lived happily and prosperously, dying peacefully in bed, leaving us a world still worth living in?

If Hitler had won, we would probably be remembering the brave Nazis saving us from the murderous fanatics who believed the best way to organize things was to give power for short periods to third rate managers - chosen from a list on a piece of paper.

The debt that I owe to my ancestors is mine, mine and my family's. By the Victorian era they'd been forced to live in the slums around St Katharines Dock. I am staggered by their fortitude and courage simply to survive - my great great grandmother had fifteen children, six of whom survived infancy - but I have no idea what debt anyone else owes them.

The debt to the fallen of WW2 is collective.

But you are right, Remembrance Day keeps the idea of the just war alive in our minds.

[Shaker]

But you are right, Remembrance Day keeps the idea of the just war alive in our minds.

... which is no bad thing if you're not an absolute pacifist and believe that the dreadful horror of war can at least sometimes be outweighed by even more infamous horrors - which I think it's fair to say that most people believe anyway, but a reminder doesn't hurt.

[Hope]

May I slightly refocus the thread momentarily.  I think part of the problem with remembrance can be that people - rightly or wrongly - associate honouring the dead with honouring those who led us into the situations that led to those deaths.  In the case of the 2 world wars, that is possibly an acceptable trade-off; in the case of the Falklands War, there is a fine balance to e trodden and in the case of the 2nd Gulf War, no balance at all, because anyone with even the remotest sprinkling of nous would know that there was no validity behind the reasoning given by Blair and Bush.

[Bubbles]

I can see a two minute silence coming up for what has just happened in Paris.

 

[Bubbles]

Don't get me wrong, I want peace as much as you.

Unfortunately not all our fellow human beings agree.

... which is precisely what stops me from being an absolute pacifist. Well-intentioned, no doubt about that, but no answer to power-crazed, territory-hungry loons.

Yes I agree.

Evil happens because good men/women do nothing.

We can't allow those who want to hurt others, to do so.

Protecting vunerable people is a good value to defend.

🌹

[Bubbles]

I can see a two minute silence coming up for what has just happened in Paris.

 

Yep!

A one-minute silence will be held in the UK at 11:00 GMT on Monday. It will be part of a Europe-wide silence at midday French time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34824903

Ok a one minute, rather than two...........

[Udayana]

We had silences, marches, "Je suis Charlie" and all the rest of the usual platitudes and symbolism in January, but it doesn't seem to have actually improved anything.

[floo]

Was wonderering whether people think that 'Remembrance' might become a bigger thing now that the British legin is producing enamel pin poppies as well as the traditional paper ones?  I have also noticed that some cars continue to carry the large 'car' poppies thoughout the year.

On a slightly different topic (and mods. feel free to split this onto a separate thread if you wish to); do folk think that we will ever get to a stage when an additional 'Remembrance' takes place to remember all those killed in terrorist atrocities around the world?  Should there be one?

Possibly, but I think a different token other than the poppy should be used, like a black bow, for instance. I think the poppy should be exclusively used for those killed in war.

[Hope]

On a slightly different topic (and mods. feel free to split this onto a separate thread if you wish to); do folk think that we will ever get to a stage when an additional 'Remembrance' takes place to remember all those killed in terrorist atrocities around the world?  Should there be one?

Possibly, but I think a different token other than the poppy should be used, like a black bow, for instance. I think the poppy should be exclusively used for those killed in war.

I wasn't suggesting that the poppy's use be extended Floo - sorry if my post implied that.  I think your 'black tie' would be a good idea.  Should any money be raised - to go towards the work of UNHCR or UNICEF?

[Rhiannon]

We had silences, marches, "Je suis Charlie" and all the rest of the usual platitudes and symbolism in January, but it doesn't seem to have actually improved anything.

It depends what you mean by 'improve'. It's never going to turn the hearts of those who plot and carry out such atrocities, but if the symbolism means anything, I think it is hope, and that's no bad thing in the circumstances.

[floo]

Possibly, but I think a different token other than the poppy should be used, like a black bow, for instance. I think the poppy should be exclusively used for those killed in war.
I wasn't suggesting that the poppy's use be extended Floo - sorry if my post implied that.  I think your 'black tie' would be a good idea.  Should any money be raised - to go towards the work of UNHCR or UNICEF?

That would be a good idea.

[Udayana]

It depends what you mean by 'improve'. It's never going to turn the hearts of those who plot and carry out such atrocities, but if the symbolism means anything, I think it is hope, and that's no bad thing in the circumstances.

Certainly sharing our feelings help us feel hope. However there is an expectation that together, i.e. via our elected governments, that action can actually be taken to resolve these problems. So that means, actually understanding why they arise and intervening to stop them - but I feel we don't get much further after the symbolism before returning to our pet issues.

[Rhiannon]

I think we've woken up to the fact that we can't do that any longer.