Terror attacks in Paris.

[Nearly Sane]

I think it is perfectly valid to question the coverage of the different tragedies, or indeed to bring people's attention to what they mussed, which is why I posted about the bombings in Beirut but as already noted there is something vacuous about the blaming people for not caring about the right thing. Many of my friends changed their profile pics to French flags, or French flag filters,I tend to avoid such as it all seems seems bit pointless to me, but I understand why they did and support them in doing it.


The article in the Independent linked to takes a differing view. I think it is risible trolling


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153232814226636&id=13312631635&ref=bookmarks

[wigginhall]

Somewhat shocked that given the source, both the newspaper and the writer, to find I agree with a lot of this. I am still in the position of trying to process recent events, and standing with Paris and those suffering from violence elsewhere, and rather like Peter Hitchens I have no suggestions that are magic wands but I think I is clear that some actions will not deal with things.


http://tinyurl.com/pmjq53l

Yes, a decent article, somewhat spoiled by the rants of the armchair warriors in the comments below.  But well done Hitchens for not taking the inane 'it's the fault of Islam' line.   I hope the French can resist this, and not follow Le Pen down the road to ruin.

Actually, to be fair, some of the comments are reasonable as well.   What is the Daily Mail playing at?

[Owlswing]

Yes, a decent article, somewhat spoiled by the rants of the armchair warriors in the comments below.  But well done Hitchens for not taking the inane 'it's the fault of Islam' line.   I hope the French can resist this, and not follow Le Pen down the road to ruin.

Actually, to be fair, some of the comments are reasonable as well.   What is the Daily Mail playing at?

Being the Daily Mail - as usual?

[Nearly Sane]

Triggered by the Independent article linked to above, I wrote the following on Facebook.

I have not put a French flag filter on. I just don't see the point. That said I understand my friends that have and I share their shock and horror at events in Paris, and indeed in Beirut and Baghdad, and Manchester where one kid was shot. It's not about numbers, and caring about one thing more than an other for reasons of likeness to you, or meaning for you does not make anyone a bad person, never mind some of the tosh in this article.


This indulgent one-upmanship on caring is deeply uncaring. It precisely treats real human suffering as an abstract numbers game. It does not promote news about the suffering of others but buries it in a whine of my caring is better than your's. None of us can begin to deal with the enormity of pain, suffering and death that we as a species seem inordinately skilled at inflicting on each other, but we will never deal with any of it while vacuously indulging in a wankfest of condemning others for not caring enough. If people care about suffering, and you want things to change ask them to help, ask them to speak up for who you see as suffering, realise that they are like the imperfect struggling person that you are. Reach out, don't attack them for not thinking exactly like you because that will just alienate and is too ironic to deal with.



A French flag does not mean there are people you don't care about, rather there are people you do care about and that is where we all must start.

[BashfulAnthony]

There is an aspect of this horror that is slightly different.  People who plant bombs and then, disappear, in a sense make their action impersonal.  But these murderers in Paris, looked their victims in the eye, listened to pleas for mercy, and still slaughtered them.  That is a particular type of evil.

[Owlswing]

Triggered by the Independent article linked to above, I wrote the following on Facebook.

I have not put a French flag filter on. I just don't see the point. That said I understand my friends that have and I share their shock and horror at events in Paris, and indeed in Beirut and Baghdad, and Manchester where one kid was shot. It's not about numbers, and caring about one thing more than an other for reasons of likeness to you, or meaning for you does not make anyone a bad person, never mind some of the tosh in this article.


This indulgent one-upmanship on caring is deeply uncaring. It precisely treats real human suffering as an abstract numbers game. It does not promote news about the suffering of others but buries it in a whine of my caring is better than your's. None of us can begin to deal with the enormity of pain, suffering and death that we as a species seem inordinately skilled at inflicting on each other, but we will never deal with any of it while vacuously indulging in a wankfest of condemning others for not caring enough. If people care about suffering, and you want things to change ask them to help, ask them to speak up for who you see as suffering, realise that they are like the imperfect struggling person that you are. Reach out, don't attack them for not thinking exactly like you because that will just alienate and is too ironic to deal with.



A French flag does not mean there are people you don't care about, rather there are people you do care about and that is where we all must start.

I totally agree.

I find the Tricolour overlay, on Facebook, very similar to various "I know who of my friends will share this" and the "99% of people will not share this - let's see if you are part of the 1%" a kind of moral blackmail.

Of course I am horrified at the deaths in Paris, as I have been at all the deaths from terrorist activity since I lost friends and colleagues during the Malayan Insurgency in the late 1960's. Large scale deaths in full-scale wars are bad enough but at least then you know who you are fighting, here it could be your next-door neighbour who kills you because you sonmehow "different".

[OH MY WORLD!]

Worried about what the fella next door might do to ya Matty? Try being friendly.

[Nearly Sane]

Hmmm maybe I have to rewrite Owlswing as it was almost precisely the opposite point I was making.

[Owlswing]

Worried about what the fella next door might do to ya Matty? Try being friendly.

BEEP - the number you have called is busy - please leave message.

[Nearly Sane]

Good article on ISIS, quite long and needs an update after Paris

[Bubbles]

All my posts have been removed 

[Gordon]

All my posts have been removed 

Moderator:

We decided to split this thread, Julie. We will restore the missing posts to a new thread, probably tomorrow now - it was a very busy day in Mod HQ today 

[wigginhall]

One of the problems in dealing with IS is that it is part of a Sunni revivalism, which is itself intent on countering the rise of Shia power, as in Iraq, supported by Iran.   I think this means that a purely military solution is going to be very difficult, since many Sunni tribes are watching like hawks to see which way the West will tilt, as also Turkey and the Saudis.   Any hint that the West favours Iran and Iraq (and Assad),  will reinforce suspicion, and will help IS find favour.   

Of course, one solution is to pull out completely, but that is probably unacceptable to politicians in the West.

[ProfessorDavey]

I totally agree.

I find the Tricolour overlay, on Facebook, very similar to various "I know who of my friends will share this" and the "99% of people will not share this - let's see if you are part of the 1%" a kind of moral blackmail.

Of course I am horrified at the deaths in Paris, as I have been at all the deaths from terrorist activity since I lost friends and colleagues during the Malayan Insurgency in the late 1960's. Large scale deaths in full-scale wars are bad enough but at least then you know who you are fighting, here it could be your next-door neighbour who kills you because you sonmehow "different".

I have done the tricolour overlay on Facebook.

It is about solidarity with the people in Paris and it doesn't mean that I don't care about people elsewhere and I know of others who have added a Facebook overlay with a more 'balanced' message (including Lebanon, Russia etc etc) but that is up to them.

Perhaps one of the reasons why I felt I should do this in solidarity is because of the proximity and similarity between life in London and life in Paris. So as someone who was out on Friday night in London, first at a restaurant and then at a theatre the fact that at exactly the same time people in restaurants and in a theatre in Paris were being brutally murdered unsurprisingly hit home. There is also a kind of link back to 7:7 which affected me deeply as I could easily have been on one of the tube trains.

And this morning coming into work who was the first colleague I met - a colleague who is from Paris, whose parents still live there (actually they were visiting him this weekend and so in the UK) who has attended concerts at the Bataclan and knows the areas around there very well. Perhaps it is these kind of things which make an individual somehow more affected and more in need to show solidarity by some event than by others. Perhaps that's wrong, I don't know, but I am just being honest about it.

[Rhiannon]

I think it a matter of personal feeling. To judge one gesture as superior to another makes no sense to me.

As a former Londoner myself who had family who both commuted through and worked at Aldgate East I relate to what you say, PD.

[Bubbles]

Moderator:

We decided to split this thread, Julie. We will restore the missing posts to a new thread, probably tomorrow now - it was a very busy day in Mod HQ today 

Ok

[Gordon]

Moderator:

Just to confirm that the posts split from this thread have been used to create a new thread on the Religion & Ethics Board.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=11193.msg570091#new

[jakswan]

Of course, one solution is to pull out completely, but that is probably unacceptable to politicians in the West.

Oddly to pull out is UKIP policy as i recall.

[jeremyp]

An interesting article on the pressure to open "back doors" into our communications in the wake of the disaster.

https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/

For most people not directly involved, I think this will be the worst consequence of the terrorist attack: further erosion of our freedom and privacy "in the name of security".

[Shaker]

It's already started; I caught something yesterday about Cameron using it as a pretext for hustling through even more surveillance powers.

[Owlswing]

It's already started; I caught something yesterday about Cameron using it as a pretext for hustling through even more surveillance powers.

The old adage comes to mind - if you have nothing to hide what do you have to fear!

[King Oberon]

https://www.corbettreport.com/nothing-to-hide-nothing-to-fear/

Hydra would be proud of your stance Owlswing 

[jeremyp]

An article that was written following the Charlie Hebdo attacks but still relevant.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-ways-to-keep-terrorists-from-ruining-world_p2/

[jeremyp]

The old adage comes to mind - if you have nothing to hide what do you have to fear!

The government is going to put a surveillance camera in every bedroom in the land. Still not concerned about your privacy?

[Shaker]

The old adage comes to mind - if you have nothing to hide what do you have to fear!

A government that spies on the private lives and behaviour of the people - that's something to fear.