Religions have succeeded!

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Just after the Paris attacks by Islamic terrorists this may seem a tad ironic...but it is true that religions have succeeded. After the 'meek shall inherit the earth' thread... I thought how true it was.

What I mean is that... humans have become more  civilized, tolerant, patient, non-violent, humanistic, compassionate and selfless today as compared to earlier centuries. This is precisely what religion and spirituality have been promoting all these millennia.

But for the controls and discipline insisted on by religions, humans today would not have been as humanistic and as civilized (spiritually evolved IMO) as we are today. Religions have made it possible for us to move out of our tribal mentality and accept others.

Without religious motivations the degree of uniformity and worldwide unity would not have been possible.

Ok...there are still many who are not as civilized as we would wish...but that is the reality of gradation and differences in spiritual growth.  All humans will never be the same at any one time.  Maybe some people still need religious motivations and religious controls but since many people don't, it shows that religions have worked.

The ladder may not be useful after we have climbed to the top.....but its role in our ascent cannot be denied.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram

[ippy]

Hi everyone,

Just after the Paris attacks by Islamic terrorists this may seem a tad ironic...but it is true that religions have succeeded. After the 'meek shall inherit the earth' thread... I thought how true it was.

What I mean is that... humans have become more  civilized, tolerant, patient, non-violent, humanistic, compassionate and selfless today as compared to earlier centuries. This is precisely what religion and spirituality have been promoting all these millennia.

But for the controls and discipline insisted on by religions, humans today would not have been as humanistic and as civilized (spiritually evolved IMO) as we are today. Religions have made it possible for us to move out of our tribal mentality and accept others.

Without religious motivations the degree of uniformity and worldwide unity would not have been possible.

Ok...there are still many who are not as civilized as we would wish...but that is the reality of gradation and differences in spiritual growth.  All humans will never be the same at any one time.  Maybe some people still need religious motivations and religious controls but since many people don't, it shows that religions have worked.

The ladder may not be useful after we have climbed to the top.....but its role in our ascent cannot be denied.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram

What a stupid way of looking at life.

ippy

[BashfulAnthony]

What a stupid way of looking at life.

ippy

Why is it stupid?  Be specific.

[Rhiannon]

I think the thought that religion might 'succeed' is giving many of us sleepless nights right now.

[BashfulAnthony]

I think the thought that religion might 'succeed' is giving many of us sleepless nights right now.

Depends what each understands by "succeed," in this instance.

[~TW~]

 Came across this.

THE WHITE HOUSE & DOWNING STREET JUST CAN'T PINPOINT THE PROBLEM!

The French train guy is a Muslim
The Chattanooga guy is a Muslim
The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim
The Beltway Snipers were Muslims
The Fort Hood Shooter was a Muslim
The underwear Bomber was a Muslim
The U.S.S. Cole Bombers were Muslims
The Madrid Train Bombers were Muslims
The Bali Nightclub Bombers were Muslims
The London Subway Bombers were Muslims
The Moscow Theatre Attackers were Muslims
The Boston Marathon Bombers were Muslims
The Pan-Am flight #93 Bombers were Muslims
The Air France Entebbe Hijackers were Muslims
The Iranian Embassy Takeover, was by Muslims
The Beirut U.S. Embassy bombers were Muslims
The Libyan U.S. Embassy Attack was by Muslims
The Buenos Aires Suicide Bombers were Muslims
The Israeli Olympic Team Attackers were Muslims
The Kenyan U.S. Embassy Bombers were Muslims
The Saudi, Khobar Towers Bombers were Muslims
The Beirut Marine Barracks bombers were Muslims
The Besian Russian School Attackers were Muslims
The first World Trade Center Bombers were Muslims
The Bombay & Mumbai India Attackers were Muslims
The Achille Lauro Cruise Ship Hijackers were Muslims
The September 11th 2001 Airline Hijackers were Muslims
The Charlie Hebdo attackers were Muslims
The latest Paris attackers were Muslims
                           
Think of it:
Buddhists living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Christians = No Problem
Hindus living with Jews = No Problem
Christians living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Confucians = No Problem
Confucians living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Sikhs = No Problem
Sikhs living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Christians = No Problem
Christians living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Confucians = No Problem
Confusians living with Hindus = No Problem
                           
But then,...
Muslims living with Hindus = Problem
Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem
Muslims living with Christians = Problem
Muslims living with Jews = Problem
Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem
Muslims living with Baha'is = Problem
Muslims living with Shintos = Problem
Muslims living with Atheists = Problem
MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS = BIG PROBLEM
                           
SO THIS LEADS TO
They're not happy in Gaza
They're not happy in Egypt
They're not happy in Libya
They're not happy in Morocco
They're not happy in Iran
They're not happy in Iraq
They're not happy in Yemen
They're not happy in Afghanistan
They're not happy in Pakistan
They're not happy in Syria
They're not happy in Lebanon
They're not happy in Nigeria
They're not happy in Kenya
They're not happy in Sudan
                           
So, where are they happy?
They're happy in Australia
They're happy in England
They're happy in Belgium
They're happy in France
They're happy in Italy
They're happy in Germany
They're happy in Sweden
They're happy in the USA & Canada
They're happy in Norway & India
They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic! And who do they blame? Not Islam.....Not their leadership.....
Not themselves,THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!!
And they want to change the countries they're happy in,....to be like the countries they came from,....where they were unhappy,....and had they stayed there,....they would’ve been tortured, and killed, or both!
                           
Islamic Jihad: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
ISIS : AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Qaeda: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Taliban: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hamas: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hezbollah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Boko Haram: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Nusra: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abu Sayyaf: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Badr: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Muslim Brotherhood: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Lashkar-e-Taiba: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Palestine Liberation Front: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Ansaru: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Jemaah Islamiyah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abdullah Azzam Brigades: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
                           
And The White House or Downing Street just cannot figure out who is causing the problem??? Hello.......

It's certainly not Rocket Science!
All the best to you all.


  ~TW~

[Maeght]

Came across this.

THE WHITE HOUSE & DOWNING STREET JUST CAN'T PINPOINT THE PROBLEM!

The French train guy is a Muslim
The Chattanooga guy is a Muslim
The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim
etc etc

Certain radical Muslims have a problem with Western society - and obviously the White House and Downing Street know that. Many Muslims don't have a problem with it though.

[Rhiannon]

I grew up planning my forays into the West End around whether a bunch of Catholics wanted to blow me sky high or not. At one point whenever I went to visit my mum at her London apartment I had to go through an armed checkpoint.

[Hope]

What a stupid way of looking at life.

No more stupid than the philosophy that you seem to espouse in your posts, ippy.  After all, you seem to bvelieve that we came about as little more than the result of chance events, there is no purpose in or for our lives, we therefore have no reason to care for anyone other than ourselves, ...   How stupid is that?

[floo]

Came across this.

THE WHITE HOUSE & DOWNING STREET JUST CAN'T PINPOINT THE PROBLEM!

The French train guy is a Muslim
The Chattanooga guy is a Muslim
The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim
The Beltway Snipers were Muslims
The Fort Hood Shooter was a Muslim
The underwear Bomber was a Muslim
The U.S.S. Cole Bombers were Muslims
The Madrid Train Bombers were Muslims
The Bali Nightclub Bombers were Muslims
The London Subway Bombers were Muslims
The Moscow Theatre Attackers were Muslims
The Boston Marathon Bombers were Muslims
The Pan-Am flight #93 Bombers were Muslims
The Air France Entebbe Hijackers were Muslims
The Iranian Embassy Takeover, was by Muslims
The Beirut U.S. Embassy bombers were Muslims
The Libyan U.S. Embassy Attack was by Muslims
The Buenos Aires Suicide Bombers were Muslims
The Israeli Olympic Team Attackers were Muslims
The Kenyan U.S. Embassy Bombers were Muslims
The Saudi, Khobar Towers Bombers were Muslims
The Beirut Marine Barracks bombers were Muslims
The Besian Russian School Attackers were Muslims
The first World Trade Center Bombers were Muslims
The Bombay & Mumbai India Attackers were Muslims
The Achille Lauro Cruise Ship Hijackers were Muslims
The September 11th 2001 Airline Hijackers were Muslims
The Charlie Hebdo attackers were Muslims
The latest Paris attackers were Muslims
                           
Think of it:
Buddhists living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Christians = No Problem
Hindus living with Jews = No Problem
Christians living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Confucians = No Problem
Confucians living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Sikhs = No Problem
Sikhs living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Christians = No Problem
Christians living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Confucians = No Problem
Confusians living with Hindus = No Problem
                           
But then,...
Muslims living with Hindus = Problem
Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem
Muslims living with Christians = Problem
Muslims living with Jews = Problem
Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem
Muslims living with Baha'is = Problem
Muslims living with Shintos = Problem
Muslims living with Atheists = Problem
MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS = BIG PROBLEM
                           
SO THIS LEADS TO
They're not happy in Gaza
They're not happy in Egypt
They're not happy in Libya
They're not happy in Morocco
They're not happy in Iran
They're not happy in Iraq
They're not happy in Yemen
They're not happy in Afghanistan
They're not happy in Pakistan
They're not happy in Syria
They're not happy in Lebanon
They're not happy in Nigeria
They're not happy in Kenya
They're not happy in Sudan
                           
So, where are they happy?
They're happy in Australia
They're happy in England
They're happy in Belgium
They're happy in France
They're happy in Italy
They're happy in Germany
They're happy in Sweden
They're happy in the USA & Canada
They're happy in Norway & India
They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic! And who do they blame? Not Islam.....Not their leadership.....
Not themselves,THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!!
And they want to change the countries they're happy in,....to be like the countries they came from,....where they were unhappy,....and had they stayed there,....they would’ve been tortured, and killed, or both!
                           
Islamic Jihad: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
ISIS : AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Qaeda: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Taliban: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hamas: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hezbollah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Boko Haram: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Nusra: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abu Sayyaf: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Badr: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Muslim Brotherhood: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Lashkar-e-Taiba: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Palestine Liberation Front: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Ansaru: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Jemaah Islamiyah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abdullah Azzam Brigades: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
                           
And The White House or Downing Street just cannot figure out who is causing the problem??? Hello.......

It's certainly not Rocket Science!
All the best to you all.


  ~TW~

BIGOT! Not all Muslims are extremists only a minority, just like not all Christians are nasty, evil extremist bigots, only a minority!

[Hope]

Depends what each understands by "succeed," in this instance.

I would agree, BA.  I can't speak for other religions and philosophies of life, but the underlying reality of both Judaism and Christianity is that humans live in harmony with God and each other.  That isn't to say that, over the centures, that reality has been usurped, abused and misrepresented, but then, that has been the case with just about everything in this world.

[john]

Far from it;

Now is the time to step up the “war” on religion. I mean we need to do much ... much more to convince believers they are wrong and that all religion is harmful.
 
Religion causes people to believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong, blind to logic and consideration for the well being of humanity.

Those who believe they are right are likely to  think it is OK to, cut of bits of children’s genitals for no good reason, Kill homosexuals, Deny human rights to women, Control and limit the behaviour of those who do not share their beliefs, Deny human rights to those who do not share their beliefs and/or simply kill them.

[trippymonkey]

Although I DO understand when some here say 'not ALL Muslims' etc etc, I WILL say....
It only takes ONE suicide bomber or, indeed a SMALL !!!!!!! group to kill 100s... !!!

Nick

[Rhiannon]

I grew up planning my forays into the West End around whether a bunch of Catholics wanted to blow me sky high or not. At one point whenever I went to visit my mum at her London apartment I had to go through an armed checkpoint.

 

Not good!

I lived in the sticks, but some of my friends lived in Birmingham and they like you lived with it too  ( so they have told me, worrying about families when bombs exploded)

I think we forget that, whilst the current situation is quite horrible, in a sense it is nothing new. Political and religious terrorism has been happening across Europe throughout my lifetime.

[BashfulAnthony]

I grew up planning my forays into the West End around whether a bunch of Catholics wanted to blow me sky high or not. At one point whenever I went to visit my mum at her London apartment I had to go through an armed checkpoint.

 

Not good!

I lived in the sticks, but some of my friends lived in Birmingham and they like you lived with it too  ( so they have told me, worrying about families when bombs exploded)

I think we forget that, whilst the current situation is quite horrible, in a sense it is nothing new. Political and religious terrorism has been happening across Europe for my whole lifetime.

You are so complacent about everything!  Oh, that's the way it is: that's the real world!!

[Maeght]

Although I DO understand when some here say 'not ALL Muslims' etc etc, I WILL say....
It only takes ONE suicide bomber or, indeed a SMALL !!!!!!! group to kill 100s... !!!

Nick

Of course - but what point are you making? So you agree with labeling all Muslims as the problem?

[Rhiannon]

Suppressing religion isn't the answer. The most likely solution in the long run is that the next generation of Muslims will look at the terrorists and regard them as a bunch of embarrassing wankers. Because for all the horror they inflict, there's something indescribably pathetic about them.

[Rhiannon]

I grew up planning my forays into the West End around whether a bunch of Catholics wanted to blow me sky high or not. At one point whenever I went to visit my mum at her London apartment I had to go through an armed checkpoint.

 

Not good!

I lived in the sticks, but some of my friends lived in Birmingham and they like you lived with it too  ( so they have told me, worrying about families when bombs exploded)

I think we forget that, whilst the current situation is quite horrible, in a sense it is nothing new. Political and religious terrorism has been happening across Europe throughout my lifetime.

The IRA didn't use suicide bombers and sometimes gave warnings beforehand, not that it excuses them.

But when you are up against someone who expects to die, they are harder to stop and are capable of causing even more harm.

Yeah, the suicide bomber ups the ante. But we've had Lockerbie, the Madrid bombings were over ten years ago. And there was the atrocity at the Munich Olympics all those years ago. 

[BashfulAnthony]

Rose,


"Failed to get their humanitarian message across."

I would say that if the message reaches some, it is succeeding.  But it is not just about getting a message across.  Speaking only from a Christian perspective, it is very largely about helping others, those who are in need;  and in that respect it certainly does succeed.

[Hope]

Came across this.

THE WHITE HOUSE & DOWNING STREET JUST CAN'T PINPOINT THE PROBLEM!

I think this is erroneous in a whole multitude of ways, ~TW~.

Let's starts with the first part of the list:

the Oklahoma bomber was almost certainly a white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant anti-federalists
the Warrington bombers were white, Catholic Irish republicans
the destroyers of the Ayodhya Mosque were Hindu Indian nationalists
those responsible for the downing of Malaysian Airlines' Flight MH17 were white Russians of indeterminate religious faith

That's just 4 examples that don't match the 'Muslim' narrative

Then there are the well-known bloodbaths that have existed amongst differnt ethnic/religious/national groups across the world.  The atrocities by both sides during the Partitioning of the Indian Sub-continent; the Holocaust; the events surrounding apartheid; the ethnic cleansing that has taken place in Eastern Europe/Rwanda/etc; the Buddhist violence in Burma/Myanmar; ...

Wherever you got your 'list' its about time you contacted the source and reminded them just how wrong they are.

To suggest that

[BashfulAnthony]

Rose,


"Failed to get their humanitarian message across."

I would say that if the message reaches some, it is succeeding.  But it is not just about getting a message across.  Speaking only from a Christian perspective, it is very largely about helping others, those who are in need;  and in that respect it certainly does succeed.

I'd agree that actions are extremely important, however if you can change what is in people's hearts ( figuratively  speaking)  some of those actions would become unnecessary.

(By message I am not referring to people believing in Christianity but a basically humanitarian golden rule one )

Christianity has failed to reach those who hurt others, in the case of a few Muslims even their own religion has failed.

Has it?  You can teach people the right ways, but you cannot force them to adopt them; especially when people are open to so many other influences.  The thing is, you keep trying.

[Shaker]

What a stupid way of looking at life.

No more stupid than the philosophy that you seem to espouse in your posts, ippy.  After all, you seem to bvelieve that we came about as little more than the result of chance events, there is no purpose in or for our lives, we therefore have no reason to care for anyone other than ourselves, ...   How stupid is that?

Incredibly stupid as a putative description of atheism, for sure.

[Outrider]

Just after the Paris attacks by Islamic terrorists this may seem a tad ironic...but it is true that religions have succeeded. After the 'meek shall inherit the earth' thread... I thought how true it was.

What I mean is that... humans have become more  civilized, tolerant, patient, non-violent, humanistic, compassionate and selfless today as compared to earlier centuries. This is precisely what religion and spirituality have been promoting all these millennia.

That's a particularly one-sided view of religion. Some elements of some religions have promoted acceptance, non-violence and compassion, but other religions - and other elements of those religions - have promoted concepts like slavery, misogyny, homophobia, caste systems and racism.

But for the controls and discipline insisted on by religions, humans today would not have been as humanistic and as civilized (spiritually evolved IMO) as we are today. Religions have made it possible for us to move out of our tribal mentality and accept others.

Religious attempts to control are no different to any other attempt to control. Humanity's record has improved with the introduction of the idea of personal autonomy and individual rights, the very antithesis of classical religion, and something that modern religions are either dissolving themselves into insignificance to try and embody (i.e. Anglicanism) or desperately fighting back against (i.e. fundamentalist Islam's ongoing campaign against 'Western' values and culture). We haven't advanced because of religion but despite it.

Without religious motivations the degree of uniformity and worldwide unity would not have been possible.

We haven't advanced through uniformity, which religion would promote, but through unity - people agreeing fundamental, underlying principles and allowing individuals to choose their own paths outside of that wherever possible.

Ok...there are still many who are not as civilized as we would wish...

And, typically, those cultures are characterised amongst other ideas by overt religiosity.

but that is the reality of gradation and differences in spiritual growth.  All humans will never be the same at any one time.  Maybe some people still need religious motivations and religious controls but since many people don't, it shows that religions have worked.

No, it really doesn't. You seem to think that civil compliance and obedience is a goal, and religion does an exceptional job at that, but constraining people simply leads to rebellion.

The ladder may not be useful after we have climbed to the top.....but its role in our ascent cannot be denied

It's role can't be denied, but I wouldn't describe that role as 'ladder'.

O.

[BashfulAnthony]

What a stupid way of looking at life.

No more stupid than the philosophy that you seem to espouse in your posts, ippy.  After all, you seem to bvelieve that we came about as little more than the result of chance events, there is no purpose in or for our lives, we therefore have no reason to care for anyone other than ourselves, ...   How stupid is that?

Incredibly stupid as a putative description of atheism, for sure.

Is it intended to be a putative description of atheism?

[Shaker]

Looks like it, yes, given Hope's reference to "the philosophy you seem to espouse in your [ippy's] posts."