A microcosm of what is wrong with religion

[jeremyp]

This involves France, and is trivial in comparison with other events, but it demonstrates the main problem i have with religion.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-cancels-official-dinner-with-irans-president-rouhani-because-he-wants-it-to-be-wine-free-a6729581.html

There was to be a State dinner held by President Hollande for the Iranian PM but it had to be cancelled because the Iranian PM insisted, not only that he not be served wine (and be served halal meat) but neither should anybody else present. Faced with a choice of diplomatic incident or not drinking wine with their meal, the French chose diplomatic incident.

I have no problem with Muslims or any other religionist obeying their own silly little rules, but if you want me to obey them too, you can go forth and multiply^*.

^*Original wording euphemised at the request of Bashful Anthony.

[Shaker]

Utterly, blitheringly trivial example that manifests the exact same principle: a recent episode of a popular Channel 4 programme involving reciprocal dinner parties (yes, that one) featured a Muslim guest, teetotal and halal meat only, who was served no alcohol and was given a specially-made alternative not involving meat. When it came time for this guest to play host, she served no alcohol to the other guests who may have wanted some on the grounds that she doesn't have alcohol in her house, so nobody else can gave any.

Trivial fluff in itself, but so like the current example in the OP that I couldn't help sharing it. It exhibits all the same hallmarks of rigidity, inflexibility, inability to ... I was going to say accomodate another person's point of view but for the fact it isn't even an accomodation, it's the utter failure to do your own thing and go your own way while other people do their thing.

[Nearly Sane]

If I go to a vegetarian house, I do not expect to be served meat. If the dining programme had been about a vegetarian and some meat eaters I would have expected those who are meat either to serve all vegetarian dishes, or ones for the vegetarian alone. I would not expect the vegetarian to serve meat to the meat eaters. So I think the analogy with the French dinner does not work as being about the evils of religion.

[jeremyp]

If I go to a vegetarian house, I do not expect to be served meat. If the dining programme had been about a vegetarian and some meat eaters I would have expected those who are meat either to serve all vegetarian dishes, or ones for the vegetarian alone. I would not expect the vegetarian to serve meat to the meat eaters. So I think the analogy with the French dinner does not work as being about the evils of religion.

No, this is about the wine. The Iranian PM insisted that nobody be allowed to drink wine at the meal organised by the French because of his religious principle.

[Nearly Sane]

I was picking up on Shaker's,post and saying I didn't think it analogous to the, what I presume, is the Come Dine with Me Example.

[jeremyp]

I was picking up on Shaker's,post and saying I didn't think it analogous to the, what I presume, is the Come Dine with Me Example.

I agree with you on that. As the president of France visiting Iran, I would not expect to be served alcohol. The OP is about the reciprocal arrangement.

[Udayana]

Seems to me that neither side actually wanted a meeting, just an opportunity to display how obstinate they could be.

[Nearly Sane]

Except, of course, there is actually a meeting. Just one where the requisite amount of face is saved.

[Nearly Sane]

Think it is both a bit more political and pointless than just the Iranian President

[SusanDoris]

It's difficult to find an optimistic side to this kind of thing. I sigh and bemoan the fact that it's going to take so very long for things to improve.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No, this is about the wine. The Iranian PM insisted that nobody be allowed to drink wine at the meal organised by the French because of his religious principle.

I come from a school of pragmatism which would have ruled having an alcohol free meal but turning up pissed to it.

[Hope]

We had a Muslim from one gov dept come for breakfast once, he insisted we all have our eggs, sausages and bacon as normal, while he had steak cooked in a different pan.

So I think this is just the Iranian PM being bloody minded..... Rather than a feature of Islam.

Insofar as it isn't prticularly a religious issue, I'd agree.  After all, the trad title could just as easily have been 'A microcosm of what is wrong with humanity' and we could have almost identical posts thus far.

[BashfulAnthony]

Hindus and Jews, Muslims, have dietary restrictions.  What restrictions can you suggest Christians have?

[BeRational]

Hindus and Jews, Muslims, have dietary restrictions.  What restrictions can you suggest Christians have?

Some don't give blood.

[jeremyp]

Insofar as it isn't prticularly a religious issue, I'd agree.  After all, the trad title could just as easily have been 'A microcosm of what is wrong with humanity' and we could have almost identical posts thus far.

No. Many people are abstemious in some category or other, but it is a peculiarly religious thing to try to force your abstention on other people without good reason.

 

[BashfulAnthony]

Fish on Fridays? Giving up something for lent? Some don't drink alcohol.

 These traditions are not incumbent on Christians, nowadays, that they must adhere to them.  The fish on Friday is long gone;  the Lent bit is more of a social event, followed by all kinds of faiths, or no faith;  and the giving of blood bit is just a quirk of a very quirky group, not generally accepted as representative of modern Christian thinking.
 

[BeRational]

These traditions are not incumbent on Christians, nowadays, that they must adhere to them.  The fish on Friday is long gone;  the Lent bit is more of a social event, followed by all kinds of faiths, or no faith;  and the giving of blood bit is just a quirk of a very quirky group, not generally accepted as representative of modern Christian thinking.

That is your opinion, but the adherents would disagree.

Again, what is your method for determining which bits of text are true?

[Sassy]

We had a Muslim from one gov dept come for breakfast once, he insisted we all have our eggs, sausages and bacon as normal, while he had steak cooked in a different pan.

So I think this is just the Iranian PM being bloody minded..... Rather than a feature of Islam.

Whilst he may abstain by choice the Iranian PM had not right to demand or expect others to do as he did.

[BashfulAnthony]

That is your opinion, but the adherents would disagree.

Again, what is your method for determining which bits of text are true?

I have read, in detail, over the years, and accept what is the usual, scholarly, view.  I do not make it up myself.  How do you determine what is true and what is not?

[BeRational]

I have read, in detail, over the years, and accept what is the usual, scholarly, view.  I do not make it up myself.  How do you determine what is true and what is not?

There are no scholars!
Its just text and giving someone a title scholar of made up stuff does not impress me.
Theology is the study of nothing.

Show me the data and method and experimental results.

Its all just opinion.

[BashfulAnthony]

There are no scholars!
Its just text and giving someone a title scholar of made up stuff does not impress me.
Theology is the study of nothing.

Show me the data and method and experimental results.

Its all just opinion.

At which nonsense I take my leave, and go to bed.

[BeRational]

At which nonsense I take my leave, and go to bed.

And again insult instead of rational argument.

Whenever you are asked a question you struggle with you revert to insult and diversion.

This is a very dishonest way to behave.

[Leonard James]

And again insult instead of rational argument.

Whenever you are asked a question you struggle with you revert to insult and diversion.

This is a very dishonest way to behave.

Surprise, surprise!

[SusanDoris]

There are no scholars!
Its just text and giving someone a title scholar of made up stuff does not impress me.
Theology is the study of nothing.

Show me the data and method and experimental results.

Its all just opinion.

Well said.

[Rhiannon]

I've studied theology. It's a very strange thing - lots of complex ideas and disciplines that are ultimately devoid of meaning.