Author Topic: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion  (Read 18398 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #75 on: November 20, 2015, 02:11:46 PM »
But gods don't exist anywhere except in the beliefs of people. So when you study people's beliefs about God you are studying god.

I'm not trying to make a point. It's just how I see it. I honestly struggle to get my around the idea that you can separate the two.

It's the difference between studying what people believe/have believed about unicorns and the study of unicorns as a scientific discipline.

Outrider

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2015, 02:41:30 PM »
Read my post again, O; I didn't say that we are seeing more famine events, I said we are seeing more-serious famine events.  Linguistically, those two ideas are very different from each other.

In what way are they more serious? Are people more starving than not having any food? Are these famines affecting larger areas - yes, but given that there are fewer people in those areas the actual starvation isn't getting worse. There are fewer people suffering from starvation - they might be in more numerous but smaller groups - so I fail to see how you interpret 'more serious' famines. Longer lasting, maybe?

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O, in 2008, the global number of Forcibly Displaced People stood at 42m; by 2010 that had risen to 43.7m; by 2012, to 45.2m: by 2014 the figure had risen to 59.5m (considerably higher than the 1994 figure of 47m) (Figures from UNHCR Global Trend reports)

And the primary method of estimating those figures is... to review the population of refugee camps. If - as I suggested - we have more of those camps, and they are being better run, we'd have a higher estimate of people. If, regardless of that, we do have more displaced people than we used to (proportionally - that it's absolutely more isn't really in question) that doesn't automatically mean we're any worse, given that they are being better catered for than they ever have been. It's still a terrible thing, but it's not as terrible as often as it used to be.

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Is that why we still measure the number of people living on less than a dollar a day?

Are we? Most reports I see of poverty are talking about relative poverty in their local area - trying to ask 'who earns less than a dollar a day' is largely meaningless given the vast differentiation in the purchasing power of a dollar (or equivalent) in various places.

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Our poor are extremely wealthy in global terms, O.

In the UK, you mean? Or perhaps, more widely, Europe? Yes, yes they are - good, isn't it.

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You clearly haven't lived alongside the poorest, O.  When we worked in Nepal, our monthly stipend was equivalent to about £350 (for a family of 4).  Add housing, education and medical costs (all covered by the agency from the monies we, as a family unit raised) to that and we were on about £700 a month.  During our first 3 years we lived in an area where there were a few professional Nepalese families living and their monthly income was around about £300; in our second 3 year stint we lived in an area that was largely business (the jewellery quarter was 150 yards from the house), and their monthly income was nearer £400.

These were affluent areas of the town we worked in. Others in the agency lived out in rural areas, and their neighbours' monthly income would struggle to be £30-40, possibly as low as £20.  OK, these folk might be the odd £ or 2 better off than their parents 40-odd years ago.

So they're able to get by within their community, and they've not gotten any worse. That's a shame, but it's not exactly terrible. How many places that aren't Nepal now have running water that didn't, now have access to medical care that didn't, now have communication with the outside world that didn't.

I'm not pretending everyone's living in a Utopia, nor that we're anywhere near finished, nor that everything's moving in the right direction. However, as a global picture, there is a lower percentage of the populace of the planet that are starving, infant mortality as a global measure is down, preventable diseases are increasingly being controlled or eradicated, access to clean water and basic foods is better, communications technologies are more widespread. These are all good things, these are all improvements in the fundamentals of life for thousand, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and, in some cases, millions of people.

The world is a better place than it has been; let's keep that going.

O.
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Samuel

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2015, 06:02:00 PM »
It's the difference between studying what people believe/have believed about unicorns and the study of unicorns as a scientific discipline.

Sorry Rhiannon, I still don't get it. God as a concept is far more complex than an imaginary creature. God, as a concept, is rooted deeply in how people make sense of life. I can understand that theology is different to studying religion but I can't separate the state of belief from the concept of God. To me they are one in the same.
A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

ippy

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #78 on: November 20, 2015, 07:44:09 PM »
Sorry Rhiannon, I still don't get it. God as a concept is far more complex than an imaginary creature. God, as a concept, is rooted deeply in how people make sense of life. I can understand that theology is different to studying religion but I can't separate the state of belief from the concept of God. To me they are one in the same.

God, gods or the theology of, are no more real than any imaginary creature of your choice, no matter how complex you think the idea of god/theology is.

ippy


Rhiannon

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2015, 07:58:42 PM »
Theology is comp,ex - there's no getting away from it. But it claims to be the subject that gives you knowledge of God. It doesn't; it gives you ideas about God. The problem for me as someone who has studied it is that although it helps us to understand people who believe, it does nothing to further understanding of God - there are no facts to understand. Ultimately it's the study of chasing shadows.

Hope

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2015, 08:36:03 PM »
Theology is comp,ex - there's no getting away from it. But it claims to be the subject that gives you knowledge of God. It doesn't; it gives you ideas about God. The problem for me as someone who has studied it is that although it helps us to understand people who believe, it does nothing to further understanding of God - there are no facts to understand. Ultimately it's the study of chasing shadows.
I would disagree, in that it has never ever helped me understand people who believe, but has definitely helped me understand God.
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Hope

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2015, 08:37:04 PM »
God, gods or the theology of, are no more real than any imaginary creature of your choice, no matter how complex you think the idea of god/theology is.

ippy
So, in many ways, its no different to any other field of study that we human beings get involved in, ippy?
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Shaker

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2015, 08:40:03 PM »
So, in many ways, its no different to any other field of study that we human beings get involved in, ippy?
No, since a lot of people often study, like, real stuff.
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Hope

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #83 on: November 20, 2015, 08:54:17 PM »
In what way are they more serious? Are people more starving than not having any food? Are these famines affecting larger areas - yes, but given that there are fewer people in those areas the actual starvation isn't getting worse. There are fewer people suffering from starvation - they might be in more numerous but smaller groups - so I fail to see how you interpret 'more serious' famines. Longer lasting, maybe?
Longer-lasting; impacting on areas that don't traditionally have such weather conditions; traditional bread baskets - even in the developed world - producing less produce thus causing shortages in surpluses that can be used to support the more traditionally famine-prone areas of the world.

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And the primary method of estimating those figures is... to review the population of refugee camps. If - as I suggested - we have more of those camps, and they are being better run, we'd have a higher estimate of people. If, regardless of that, we do have more displaced people than we used to (proportionally - that it's absolutely more isn't really in question) that doesn't automatically mean we're any worse, given that they are being better catered for than they ever have been. It's still a terrible thing, but it's not as terrible as often as it used to be.
The Forcibly Displaced term covers far more than those in refugee camps.  In 2014, of the 59.5 million FDPs, 19.5m were refugees (of whom 14.4m were under the UNHCR's mandate and 5.1m were Palestinian refugees registered by UNRWA). A further 38.2m were internally displaced people - who may have been living in IDP camps or with family members or friends away from their home location within the borders of their own nations.  A further 1.8m were asylum seekers.

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The world is a better place than it has been; let's keep that going.

O.
I think that many millions across the world would regard that summary as very Western-centric, and bearing little or no relationship to the situation they find themselves in.
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Gordon

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #84 on: November 21, 2015, 07:56:55 AM »
I like Mencken's comment on theology:

'For centuries, theologians have been explaining the unknowable in terms of the-not-worth-knowing.'

Shaker

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #85 on: November 21, 2015, 08:50:32 AM »
Jerry Coyne took it to pieces on a series of posts on his website not so long ago.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Outrider

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #86 on: November 21, 2015, 10:22:15 AM »
Longer-lasting; impacting on areas that don't traditionally have such weather conditions; traditional bread baskets - even in the developed world - producing less produce thus causing shortages in surpluses that can be used to support the more traditionally famine-prone areas of the world.

There are worries, but the fact that we've been consistently overproducing for a considerable period mitigates the overall risk. There are localised problems, where one area is destroying or wasting food whilst other areas are clamouring for it, I'd agree, but tellingly fewer people don't have enough to eat. That's an improvement in the living conditions of people, that's a good thing.

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The Forcibly Displaced term covers far more than those in refugee camps.  In 2014, of the 59.5 million FDPs, 19.5m were refugees (of whom 14.4m were under the UNHCR's mandate and 5.1m were Palestinian refugees registered by UNRWA). A further 38.2m were internally displaced people - who may have been living in IDP camps or with family members or friends away from their home location within the borders of their own nations.  A further 1.8m were asylum seekers.

And in previous times many of those wouldn't have been counted, because nobody cared, and many more would have been killed before they had the opportunity to flee because modern communications lets them know what's coming and modern transport makes it easier to leave. It's not good, but it's better than it was, especially when you couple it with the experienced organisations supporting people when they are in this situation.

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I think that many millions across the world would regard that summary as very Western-centric, and bearing little or no relationship to the situation they find themselves in.

They possibly would. Many of them would believe so whilst benefitting from the health improvements, increased communications, rights overlook and increased access to food and water that they don't recognise as part of that improvement. Many, many more would appreciate those improvements and look enviously at the West and ask - rightly - why they can't have that level of freedom and support. Their impression is a mixture of justified and unjustified, but it doesn't undermine the practical fact: fewer people die in childbirth than ever before, fewer children die than ever before, a lower proportion of the world's population are starving than ever before, a lower proportion of the world's population don't have access to clean water than ever before.

How can you claim that because we haven't gone further this isn't an improvement?

O.
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ippy

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #87 on: November 21, 2015, 01:00:16 PM »
So, in many ways, its no different to any other field of study that we human beings get involved in, ippy?

Hope, Gordon summed up the worth of this comment of yours on post 91 on this thread, I can't top how he has said it.

ippy

SusanDoris

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #88 on: November 21, 2015, 01:42:57 PM »
Jerry Coyne took it to pieces on a series of posts on his website not so long ago.
Sounds good! Is there a link to them?
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Shaker

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #89 on: November 21, 2015, 01:45:19 PM »
Sounds good! Is there a link to them?
I'll dig around for you, SD.

ETA: Some lengthy reading so don't expect to digest all this overnight, but worth it:

https://goo.gl/1iMD8q

https://goo.gl/Wewc4R

https://goo.gl/PVjbGc

https://goo.gl/LlBdOK

https://goo.gl/ShfcDp
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 02:04:53 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

SusanDoris

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #90 on: November 21, 2015, 04:07:51 PM »
Thank you, Shaker. I've noted the links and will make a start today!
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Shaker

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #91 on: November 21, 2015, 04:08:27 PM »
Enjoy :)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Sassy

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2015, 07:40:43 AM »
There are no scholars!
Its just text and giving someone a title scholar of made up stuff does not impress me.
Theology is the study of nothing.

Show me the data and method and experimental results.

Its all just opinion.

Not a rational or sensible reply.

Lack of knowledge is the reason for your error.
You believe you can judge Bash and yet you lack even the basic knowledge of the bible which would have answered your questions clearly without need for asking.

Let.s try this one:-
John 16:13King James Version (KJV)

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


Study this verse and you see why Bash indeed why every Christian would know what you appear to lack answers to.

As a none believer you are not and never will be in a position to judge what Christians know to be true. As I said... you don't even know the basics... :(
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Sassy

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #93 on: December 07, 2015, 07:42:30 AM »
Well said.

Not really Susan,

Emperors new clothes... the blind leading the blind, and Christ triumphant because the truth is always nonsense to those who choose to be lost.

That is something for everyone to think about... You choose to be lost... :(
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2015, 07:46:56 AM »
I've studied theology. It's a very strange thing - lots of complex ideas and disciplines that are ultimately devoid of meaning.

What theology did you study????

Never heard or read such a theology which have complex ideas, disciplines or anything else devoid of meaning.

The study of the nature of God is complex and involve ideas and disciplines devoid in meaning...do they?

Nah! Christianity and Christ show God as a loving God wanting to save us.
Pretty clear nothing complexs. Whilst beliefs in religion may be different you can disagree with the beliefs of others but you cannot say they are devoid of meaning... Admit it, Rhi, you never thought that one out.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2015, 07:49:23 AM »
None of those are requirements of faith, Rose - the restrictions referred to in BA's initial post are.  As such, Christianity does not impose dietary or other restrictions.  Churchianity, on the other hand, may.

So Hope explain the meaning of Spirit and Truth in the Christian Religion.

To help you these are the teachings of Christ.
Explain the true worshipper and what it means to worship God in Spirit and Truth.



23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

ad_orientem

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Re: A microcosm of what is wrong with religion
« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2015, 08:34:36 AM »
Well, since you mention 'text', BR - can you provide any New Testament reference that even remotely instructs a Christian to eat fish on a Friday, give something up for Lent or abstain from alcohol?

These are all remnants of a much more vigorous practice. If anyone thinks there is anything penitential about eating salmon on a Friday instead of minced meat, or giving up sweets for Lent, or abstaining from for food and drink only one hour before receiving holy communion then such are seriously deluded. The original practices are really only kept in the East nowadays but they're not to earn brownie points, rather they're part of the instructions which come along with the medicine. If Christ is the physician and the sacraments are the medicine then fasting helps the medicine do its work. It is not an optional extra.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 09:33:00 AM by ad_orientem »
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