Wider Aspects of 'Terror in Paris'

[Bubbles]

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[Ricky Spanish]

Apparently it was all committed in the name of God..

Quelle surprise.

[BashfulAnthony]

Apparently it was all committed in the name of God..

Quelle surprise.

Hardly the time to make cheap shots.  You know as well as I that this has nothing to do with God, only with a bunch of evil, homicidal maniacs.

[Hope]

We are due to take 20,000 of them ( refugees)  and I'm not totally happy about that after this.

I wasn't happy with the idea of allowing more in, but now I'm not sure about the 20,000. Yes I'm jumping to conclusions, but there is going to be lots of jumping to conclusions.

But the 20K we are due to take are people who have been victims of both the regime and of ISIS, Rose.  They are a very different group of people to the migrants who have been flooding Europe through the year.

I think Isis is going to be the death of Islam, not its saviour ( which they seem to think they are).

They have certainly had a negative impact on my veiw of it, which was positive at one point.

I suppose it's all about who's Islam.

The Islam down the road from me ( mosque) is pretty much peaceful as are its adherents.

But I am getting less tolerant of it. 

( if it was an attack by communists, it would lower my opinion of communism in the same way).

The world is now too small and there are too many of us, to tolerate any narrow minded and violent group.

I think your uncertainty, as expressed here, highlights the fact that all philosophies have their extreme adherents.  As a result, we need to be even more tolerant of those we believe to have peace at heart, not less, and to support them in their opposition of the extremists.  Unfortunately, as some experiences here show, there is a tendency to judge all by the extremists.

Why can't we all just live peacefully?

Why do idiots go out and shoot innocent people they don't know?

I understand anger born out of pain of losing someone, and lashing out. It's wrong to lash out, but I get why it happens.

I don't get why someone like jihadi John, suddenly gets this desire to behead women and children ( and there are women proud and wanting to do the same).

Rightly or wrongly, Muslim extremeists believe that their way of life is under threat from the West, Rose.  For them, they are doing what they do as a form of 'lashing out' - just in a more coordinated manner than that term suggests.  The same goes for just about any extremist, whatever belief-system thery hold to.

I think some people hate our freedom and want to enslave everyone, make their lives a misery.

France is very secular and has freedom among its values.

'Freedom' is a very 'loose' concept.  What you may understand by the term may well be very different to another person's understanding.  Think, for instance of the reasons given by Timothy McVeigh for the Oklahoma City bombing back in 1995.  He, and those like him, regarded the US Federal state as restrictive and anti-freedom.

[torridon]

Apparently it was all committed in the name of God..

Quelle surprise.

Hardly the time to make cheap shots.  You know as well as I that this has nothing to do with God, only with a bunch of evil, homicidal maniacs.

In contrast to the wars of the last century, Islamic State is profoundly about religion.  The clue is in the name.

[Hope]

Apparently it was all committed in the name of God..

Quelle surprise.

Thrud, unless you know something the authorities don't (in which case you ought to be passing that information on to them), no-one has claimed responsibility for the attacks, so whose name they were committed in is only surmise at present.

Mind you, I'd agree with your description of your jumping to conclusions - 'Quelle surprise'!

[Hope]

In contrast to the wars of the last century, Islamic State is profoundly about religion.  The clue is in the name.

But at present, the involvement of ISIS, Al Quaeda, Boko Haram, Westboro Bapotist - or whoever - is stil uncertain.  There have been suggestions made by journalists and politicians, but no claim of responsibility and no certainty.  Until that exists, Thrud's post was no more than a pot-stirring cheap shot.

[BashfulAnthony]

Apparently it was all committed in the name of God..

Quelle surprise.

Hardly the time to make cheap shots.  You know as well as I that this has nothing to do with God, only with a bunch of evil, homicidal maniacs.

In contrast to the wars of the last century, Islamic State is profoundly about religion.  The clue is in the name.

Let me enlighten you:  it is done in the name of a perverted "interpretation" of Islam, as all reasonable Muslims  -  the massive majority who are  -  constantly affirm.  Yet another cheap attempt to score points, and at a time when all should be extending sympathy to those poor people.  Shameful!   

[Ricky Spanish]

It's not a "cheap shot" bashers, it's a fact

The gunmen are reported to be shouting "Allahu Akbar" whilst murdering innocent people.

All part of Gods plan apparently?

[BashfulAnthony]

It's not a "cheap shot" bashers, it's a fact

The gunmen are reported to be shouting "Allahu Akbar" whilst murdering innocent people.

All part of Gods plan apparently?

I won't bother to repeat myself:  I tried to explain it to you in M25.

[Udayana]

In contrast to the wars of the last century, Islamic State is profoundly about religion.  The clue is in the name.

Let me enlighten you:  it is done in the name of a perverted "interpretation" of Islam, as all reasonable Muslims  -  the massive majority who are  -  constantly affirm.  Yet another cheap attempt to score points, and at a time when all should be extending sympathy to those poor people.  Shameful!

If we view all such people as nutjobs and random criminals then we fail to grasp the full import of the situation.  This is middle eastern war spilling onto the streets of Europe and the war has political and religious drivers.

Given that many different possible interpretations of Islam are possible, it must take a particular psychology to adopt the most violent and extreme. And then to go on to fight for Al Qaeda or ISIL, or bring the terror here.  Of-course they will latch onto political or religious issues, but maybe we could try and catch them before they "turn"?

[ad_orientem]

In contrast to the wars of the last century, Islamic State is profoundly about religion.  The clue is in the name.

Let me enlighten you:  it is done in the name of a perverted "interpretation" of Islam, as all reasonable Muslims  -  the massive majority who are  -  constantly affirm.  Yet another cheap attempt to score points, and at a time when all should be extending sympathy to those poor people.  Shameful!

If we view all such people as nutjobs and random criminals then we fail to grasp the full import of the situation.  This is middle eastern war spilling onto the streets of Europe and the war has political and religious drivers.

Given that many different possible interpretations of Islam are possible, it must take a particular psychology to adopt the most violent and extreme. And then to go on to fight for Al Qaeda or ISIL, or bring the terror here.  Of-course they will latch onto political or religious issues, but maybe we could try and catch them before they "turn"?

All Islamic State has to do is look to the founder. Islam is a religion which was spread by the sword from the very beginning. It's in its DNA, so to speak, which is one reason why we shouldn't be letting half the Middle-East into Europe.

[Outrider]

Let me enlighten you:  it is done in the name of a perverted "interpretation" of Islam, as all reasonable Muslims  -  the massive majority who are  -  constantly affirm.  Yet another cheap attempt to score points, and at a time when all should be extending sympathy to those poor people.  Shameful!

Let me enlighten you - they have the same source material, the same book, as all the rest. Yes, it's an interpretation of Islam, as are they all. There is no 'right' Islam, there's just versions we prefer and versions we don't, just like there is in Christianity and just like there is in Judaism.

The problem is in the nature of religion: the idea that there is an absolute justification for something that people have the capacity to interpret for themselves lends itself to totalitarian nutjobbery.

Religion is, by its nature, dangerous.

I know that the convention is the prayer forum is off-limits for discussion, I know it's done with the best of intentions, but the irony of someone starting a thread there to 'pray' for the victims in Paris last night really sticks in the craw. What happened in Paris last night WAS a prayer. Look at how much help it was.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Let me enlighten you:  it is done in the name of a perverted "interpretation" of Islam, as all reasonable Muslims  -  the massive majority who are  -  constantly affirm.  Yet another cheap attempt to score points, and at a time when all should be extending sympathy to those poor people.  Shameful!

Let me enlighten you - they have the same source material, the same book, as all the rest. Yes, it's an interpretation of Islam, as are they all. There is no 'right' Islam, there's just versions we prefer and versions we don't, just like there is in Christianity and just like there is in Judaism.

The problem is in the nature of religion: the idea that there is an absolute justification for something that people have the capacity to interpret for themselves lends itself to totalitarian nutjobbery.

Religion is, by its nature, dangerous.

I know that the convention is the prayer forum is off-limits for discussion, I know it's done with the best of intentions, but the irony of someone starting a thread there to 'pray' for the victims in Paris last night really sticks in the craw. What happened in Paris last night WAS a prayer. Look at how much help it was.

O.

Sin is the elephant in the room here Outrider.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Outrider,

The nature of religion!?

Sorry, maybe for another thread.

Gonnagle.

[torridon]

Let me enlighten you:  it is done in the name of a perverted "interpretation" of Islam, as all reasonable Muslims  -  the massive majority who are  -  constantly affirm.  Yet another cheap attempt to score points, and at a time when all should be extending sympathy to those poor people.  Shameful!

Let me enlighten you - they have the same source material, the same book, as all the rest. Yes, it's an interpretation of Islam, as are they all. There is no 'right' Islam, there's just versions we prefer and versions we don't, just like there is in Christianity and just like there is in Judaism.

The problem is in the nature of religion: the idea that there is an absolute justification for something that people have the capacity to interpret for themselves lends itself to totalitarian nutjobbery.

Religion is, by its nature, dangerous.

I know that the convention is the prayer forum is off-limits for discussion, I know it's done with the best of intentions, but the irony of someone starting a thread there to 'pray' for the victims in Paris last night really sticks in the craw. What happened in Paris last night WAS a prayer. Look at how much help it was.

O.

Sin is the elephant in the room here Outrider.

I don't think so.

'Sin' is just a little word that relieves us from having to figure out why people do awful things.

[Outrider]

Sin is the elephant in the room here Outrider.

Sin? That's it, defend the fairy tales with another speculative piece of bronze-aged bullshit.

No. People who accept ideas without justification or basis are the elephant in the room, here.

People who claim these are the 'wrong kind of Muslims', as though there were a check-list are the elephant in the room, here. People who claim 'faith' to defend their own position, but decry the bad outcomes of that as the fault of something else are the elephant in the room, here.

Religion, and the antiquated idea that its tenets deserve some sort of acceptance and respect are the elephant in the room, here.

And that elephant just stampeded through Paris and Beirut. It stampedes through medical care in the US. It stampedes through gay rights in Africa. It stampedes through women's rights all over the world.

Who knows where it's going to stampede next?

O.

[Owlswing]

In contrast to the wars of the last century, Islamic State is profoundly about religion.  The clue is in the name.

But at present, the involvement of ISIS, Al Quaeda, Boko Haram, Westboro Bapotist - or whoever - is stil uncertain.  There have been suggestions made by journalists and politicians, but no claim of responsibility and no certainty.  Until that exists, Thrud's post was no more than a pot-stirring cheap shot.

Hope

Possibly off topic, but I have to ask "Are you OK".

You are not one for typos and tour last two posts are full of them. I hope and truest that your condition has not started to deteriorate, that the cause is just you typing in a hurry!

This not a piss-take! It is a genuinely concerned enquiry. 

[Ricky Spanish]

http://tinyurl.com/neo8b63

Moderator: long URL replaced.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sin is the elephant in the room here Outrider.

Sin? That's it,

Yes and the Orthodox and Western Christian understanding of it If we are theologically aware of the concept then what is happening fits the description.
How does moral non realism help us out?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And that elephant just stampeded through Paris and Beirut. It stampedes through medical care in the US. It stampedes through gay rights in Africa. It stampedes through women's rights all over the world.

Who knows where it's going to stampede next?

O.
This is just another theory of anything.

[ippy]

Another bunch of religious nutters, another example that demonstrates a need to prevent teaching religion, all religions, to very young children, until such a time where they have acquired the ability to challenge and only after that age.

I know that's not the whole answer but, imo, it would greatly reduce this sort of extreme behavior.

I'm so sorry for all of our very close next door French neighbors and for all of the suffering they must be going through.

ippy 

[Hope]

Hope

Possibly off topic, but I have to ask "Are you OK".

You are not one for typos and tour last two posts are full of them. I hope and truest that your condition has not started to deteriorate, that the cause is just you typing in a hurry!

This not a piss-take! It is a genuinely concerned enquiry.

Hi Matt, I'm on the mend, but didn't sleep very well last night, and I may well have been a bit dozy earlier as a result.

[Hope]

Another bunch of religious nutters, another example that demonstrates a need to prevent teaching religion, all religions, to very young children, until such a time where they have acquired the ability to challenge and only after that age.

Since we get atrocities like these carried out by non-religious people as well, ippy, perhaps we need to make sure that we don't teach any 'philosophy' to 'very young people, until such a time where they have acquired the ability to challenge and only after that age.'

[Owlswing]

Another bunch of religious nutters, another example that demonstrates a need to prevent teaching religion, all religions, to very young children, until such a time where they have acquired the ability to challenge and only after that age.

I know that's not the whole answer but, imo, it would greatly reduce this sort of extreme behavior.

I'm so sorry for all of our very close next door French neighbors and for all of the suffering they must be going through.

ippy

The same could be said for Communism which had no religion! In modern times there have been more deaths attributable to political belief that to religious beliefs.