Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!

[Outrider]

I am not afraid of your gods for they are nothing but men, idols and demons. If you really would like to see a complete ripping to shreds of the pagan gods then I'd suggest reading the first ten books of Blessed Augustine's City of God and you will never look at your gods seriously again.

I feel a disturbance in the force, like a million irony-meters crying out 'Sproing' in the darkness...

O.

[Nearly Sane]

 

Because by maintaining the idea that unsubstantiated beliefs in ancient superstitions are a valid philosophy you've fed into the cultural acceptance of religion that allows the underlying philosophy of these nutjobs to stand in the modern world.

Rather than being a violent fringe of an outdated superstition they are instead the violent of fringe of a mainstream position.

O.

First of all since we don't choose what to believe that isn't even allowing for free will an action.

Second since people seem to be able to find justifications for hatred no matter what,this whole idea that it takes religion for good people to do bad is nonsense.


Third this is blaming me sainted old mother for something she had no part in and would be horrified by, and that sort of blame by proxy is attitude I find deeply scary.

[Outrider]

First of all since we don't choose what to believe that isn't even allowing for free will an action.

You can choose to believe in a God without adopting a religion. Faith is weird, but religion is scary. And whilst we can't choose what we believe, who knows whose belief might be modified or updated by exposure to the argument? It's a long shot, but against such a pernicious idea as religion it's worth a go.

Second since people seem to be able to find justifications for hatred no matter what,this whole idea that it takes religion for good people to do bad is nonsense.

Ridding ourselves of religion won't rid us of all bad acts, but it will remove some of them, and it will remove some of the barriers to addressing some of them too.

Third this is blaming me sainted old mother for something she had no part in and would be horrified by, and that sort of blame by proxy is attitude I find deeply scary.

If you support the idea of religions, you support the idea that baseless superstition justifies wordly actions - we are all part of the world, we all espouse ideas and philosophies, and we all have to accept the outcomes of that. That your mother might well have been a lovely woman in almost every way, that doesn't change the fact that supporting the idea that religions have validity has consequences.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

As said I find this proxy guilt thing very scary, btw my mother is still alive, it seems to me the logic of racism.

[Rhiannon]

I agree, NS. My mother's a Christian too and she doesn't 'support the validity' of religion; nor does she share any blame for this or any other barbarous act carried out by the church.

[Outrider]

As said I find this proxy guilt thing very scary, btw my mother is still alive, it seems to me the logic of racism.

Show me someone that has joined their ethnic group, or that can choose to leave it. Guilt is too strong, perhaps - religion is a complex beast, after all - but an acknowledgement of that interdependency is required, I think, if we're to try and get a perspective on why these things happen in order to prevent them happening again.

The undue respect given to faith positions and organised religions is part of the problem in how we address the issue of religious violence and extremism. That we have to pretend there's a valid differentiation between 'good i.e. moderate' interpretations of beliefs and 'bad i.e. extreme' interpretations of beliefs as thought that were anything more than an aesthetic account is ludicrous.

We say extremism when we mean 'a version that doesn't comply with modern sensibilities' rather than any sort of doctrinal or creed position. If there's no means to differentiate, externally (or internally), any sort of validity for these positions, then they aren't functionally any different, we're classifying them by our impact on us, not on any inherent justification.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Which is true of all moral positions.

[Owlswing]

As said I find this proxy guilt thing very scary, btw my mother is still alive, it seems to me the logic of racism.

I have accused your mother of NOTHING! I have asked that the Catholic Church acknowledge its guilt, the guilt of its clergy NOT its congregation INCLUDING YTOUR MOTHER!

How about instead of a load of rubbish because you haven't read what I posted you start thinking about what your mother might feel if one of the bodies in the septic tank had been born to her!

Or is that just too painful for you sensitivities?

Nearly Sane? Your comments here make me wonder if you are even Nearly Human!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Owlswing,

Its a forum for discussion, calm down please, you made your statement in your OP, now we can discuss.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Owlswing, mate, my mother's a Christian too and I feel much as NS does. I'm an England football fan but I bear no blame for the football hooliganism of the past. And you and I as pagans bear no blame for the abuses carried out over the years by some over the vulnerable. Any group of people will have among them those that are stupid and those that are rotten to the core.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Outrider,

The undue respect given to faith positions and organised religions is part of the problem in how we address the issue of religious violence and extremism.

Undue respect!! another argument for another day, what have the Romans ever did for us. No leave it Gonnagle ( maybe its my confirmation bias, or maybe my self serving bias )

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

I have accused your mother of NOTHING! I have asked that the Catholic Church acknowledge its guilt, the guilt of its clergy NOT its congregation INCLUDING YTOUR MOTHER!

How about instead of a load of rubbish because you haven't read what I posted you start thinking about what your mother might feel if one of the bodies in the septic tank had been born to her!

Or is that just too painful for you sensitivities?

Nearly Sane? Your comments here make me wonder if you are even Nearly Human!

Since I was taking issue with a point from Outrider, I haven't said anything about you accusing my mother of anything.

I have already stated clearly that my mother would condemn this and be horrified by it and rightly so.

I understand that you feel the suffering involved in this deeply, but I would suggest that it is leading you to rush the reading on this because you are, no doubt innocently, misrepresenting what I have written quite seriously.

[Outrider]

I have accused your mother of NOTHING! I have asked that the Catholic Church acknowledge its guilt, the guilt of its clergy NOT its congregation INCLUDING YTOUR MOTHER!

How about instead of a load of rubbish because you haven't read what I posted you start thinking about what your mother might feel if one of the bodies in the septic tank had been born to her!

Or is that just too painful for you sensitivities?

Nearly Sane? Your comments here make me wonder if you are even Nearly Human!

I think that particular comment was probably aimed at my contention that everyone that supports the idea of religion is partially responsible for the fact that religion is acceptable, which feeds the problem of extremist religious terrorism.

O.

[Rhiannon]

To suggest that religion isn't acceptable leads to tyranny.

Tricky, isn't it?

[Outrider]

Dear Outrider,

Undue respect!! another argument for another day, what have the Romans ever did for us. No leave it Gonnagle ( maybe its my confirmation bias, or maybe my self serving bias )

Gonnagle.

Undue respect. I can respect your right to a religion, I can acknowledge that many good things have come from religious people, many good things have been credited to religious inspiration, but that doesn't change the underlying fact that religion as a concept doesn't merit respect.

I can acknowledge the fact that the Great Fire of London had a significant impact on subsequent architecture, the subsidence of the plague in the area and didn't actually kill nearly as many people as is generally presumed, but that doesn't mean I have to think setting fire to London is a good idea*.

O.

* even that, I suspect, will be open to discussion from some

[Gonnagle]

Dear Outrider,

Undue respect. I can respect your right to a religion, I can acknowledge that many good things have come from religious people, many good things have been credited to religious inspiration, but that doesn't change the underlying fact that religion as a concept doesn't merit respect.

I can acknowledge the fact that the Great Fire of London had a significant impact on subsequent architecture, the subsidence of the plague in the area and didn't actually kill nearly as many people as is generally presumed, but that doesn't mean I have to think setting fire to London is a good idea*.

Sorry but I don't get your analogy, or that you say, 

but that doesn't change the underlying fact that religion as a concept doesn't merit respect.

Underlying fact! or religion as a concept!

concept

an abstract idea.
"structuralism is a difficult concept"
synonyms:   idea, notion, conception, abstraction, conceptualization; More
a plan or intention.
"the centre has kept firmly to its original concept"
an idea or invention to help sell or publicize a commodity.
"a new concept in corporate hospitality"

My idea of religion, the world in harmony, but maybe that is pie in the sky.

Nope, you have officially burn't a few of my old grey cells, not to worry, gives more room for the few remaining

Gonnagle

[Owlswing]

Dear Owlswing,

Its a forum for discussion, calm down please, you made your statement in your OP, now we can discuss.

Gonnagle.

Probably the nicest politest way in which I have ever been asked to piss off!

Cinsider it done!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Owlswing,

Probably the nicest politest way in which I have ever been asked to piss off!

Nope, I never tell pagans to piss off, atheists on the other hand

Gonnagle.

[Owlswing]

Dear Owlswing,

Nope, I never tell pagans to piss off, atheists on the other hand

Gonnagle.

I said you "asked" - I did not say you "told" - it was BA who "told" me, so I stayed - you "asked" me so I am going.

[Hope]

Typical!

Not one comment of condemnation!

Is condemnation the right emotion anyway, Matt.  Surely, a better attitude is horror and, as Gonners has said subsequently - 'never again on my watch'. 

In my view condemnation is both negative and potentially as destructive as the original event.  I regard a positive 'what can we do to stop this happening again' attitude far more constructive.

Not one comment asking what has been done about finding those responsible!

Not one question about what the Church has done to find any children, if any, who survived.

That could simply because those of us who are Christians take that as read.

If this is, or was, an example of your God's love, and according to those in charge of this branch of your Church, it was . . . then Hellfire is just not enough!

Matt, Druidism had a pretty poor 'health and safety' record if history is to be believed.  Was that the fault of their deity, or their human action?

[Owlswing]

Hope

TOO LITTLE and TOO LATE!

The same bullshit repeated again!

[Leonard James]

Dear Owlswing,

Nope, I never tell pagans to piss off, atheists on the other hand

Gonnagle.

Getting rid of us won't make gods any more real. They are all the fruit of the human imagination.

[Hope]

Because by maintaining the idea that unsubstantiated beliefs in ancient superstitions are a valid philosophy you've fed into the cultural acceptance of religion that allows the underlying philosophy of these nutjobs to stand in the modern world.

Rather than being a violent fringe of an outdated superstition they are instead the violent of fringe of a mainstream position.

O.

O, the position you take is no less a 'nutjob' position.

[Hope]

Getting rid of us won't make gods any more real. They are all the fruit of the human imagination.

Mind you, if the latter are also the fruit of a deity's actions, then your arguemnt is turned on itself.  Do you have any conclusive evidence that they aren't (and no Shakes, again, this is not a negative proof argument: I am asking LJ to provide evidence to support his particular assertion).

[Hope]

Hope

TOO LITTLE and TOO LATE!

The same bullshit repeated again!

Matt, in view of the large number of horrific events that occur across the globe, it can be difficult to keep up with all of them.  I will only accept your condemnation if you can prove that Pagans have never perpetrated anything similar.