Christianity banned from cinemas

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

He/she/it puts up with the likes of me, and believe me old son that requires God like qualities, endless patience being just one.

Gonnagle.

How can you possibly know?

ippy

[Hope]

Jesus is not 'the reason for the season' - the reason is to do with orbital mechanics meaning there is a point where the days stop getting shorter and start getting longer again. Christianity hijacked that observation by earlier traditions, and consumerism hijacked that.

The reason for the season is whatever you want it to be.

O.

So, why is it called Christmas?  I am not denying that previous traditions existed, though never, to my knowledge, on Dec 25th - but Christmas is a Christian festival in the same way that Samhain and Beltane are Pagan festivals for their respective times of year.  Commercial interests have only partially hijacked the Christmas Festival, since we still have the Christian aspects of it being celebrated.   Without those Christian elements we would never have had 'Christmas'.  There is nothing wrong, in my view, in reminding people what the festival actually means - in exactly the same way that I would have no problem with adverts reminding people what Samhain and Beltane, Saturnalia and Eid al-Fitr, etc. mean for those who celebrate them.

To an extent, the fact that so few people know what these various festivals mean points to the way in which we as a society have become divorced from our cultural roots.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes. And those cinemas had the freedom to choose. They didn't choose Christianity - boo hoo... that's not a ban, that's a commentary on the relevance of Christianity in the 21st Century in Britain.

O.

Actually they have decided not to allow any adverts that are political or religious (and they are clear that overt atheist advertising would not be permitted either).

The policy from the Digital Cinema Media (DCM) agency states:

"To be approved, an advertisement must ... not in the reasonable opinion of DCM constitute political or religious advertising.", with further clarification on what is meant by 'religious', as follows:

"Religious advertising means: advertising which wholly or partially advertises any religion, faith or equivalent systems of belief (including any absence of belief) or any part of any religion, faith or such equivalent systems of belief."

So they aren't targeting Christianity specifically, but having a blanket ban. I guess one of the problems had they allowed this advert would be that they could reasonably then ban an advert that might be far less innocuous, perhaps involving a more fundamentalist, extremist line from a different Christian group or maybe from another religion, e.g. Islam. Having allowed this advert they couldn't reasonably then ban a later advert.

[ProfessorDavey]

So, why is it called Christmas?  I am not denying that previous traditions existed, though never, to my knowledge, on Dec 25th - but Christmas is a Christian festival in the same way that Samhain and Beltane are Pagan festivals for their respective times of year.  Commercial interests have only partially hijacked the Christmas Festival, since we still have the Christian aspects of it being celebrated.   Without those Christian elements we would never have had 'Christmas'.  There is nothing wrong, in my view, in reminding people what the festival actually means - in exactly the same way that I would have no problem with adverts reminding people what Samhain and Beltane, Saturnalia and Eid al-Fitr, etc. mean for those who celebrate them.

To an extent, the fact that so few people know what these various festivals mean points to the way in which we as a society have become divorced from our cultural roots.

Oh here we go again.

So why is Easter called ... err ... Easter - celebrated by Christians as a Christian festival yet the etymology of the word has absolutely zero to do with Christianity and is, very likely, derived from a pagan spring goddess.

You can't try to have it both ways Hope.

The reality is that both Christmas (named after a Christian deity) and Easter (named after a Pagan deity) are complex multifaceted festivals, involving religious aspects and also aspects that are much more related to the season.

People celebrate them in a range of ways on a spectrum from entirely religious, through to entirely seasonal - although I suspect most people celebrate in a kind of mixed mode, involving traditional elements of each. But don't forget that just because people may nod to the religious traditions of Christmas that doesn't mean they either believe it nor think it important. Just a couple of weeks ago many of us enjoyed fireworks at an event that derived from anti catholic sentiment in the early 17thC - I doubt that many of us believe in that anti catholic sentiment now.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Outrider,

Is it? I disagree, it's never worthwhile getting people to pray, it's better to get them to do something useful.

Is it? Like coming together to remember, but Our Lord had different ideas when it came to prayer, quiet contemplation, nothing wrong with a bit of quiet contemplation.

Gonnagle.

[Hope]

Then why do they need an advert?

In the same way that many other adverts aren't selling things but giving information.

That's one opinion. Prayer is about trying to cast magic is another opinion.

Yet no-one has ever managed to provide any evidence for that opinion and (before Shakes tries his much-loved negative-proof fallacy trick) an opinion is equivalent to an assertion so that opinion needs to have some supportin evidence.

Is it? I disagree, it's never worthwhile getting people to pray, it's better to get them to do something useful.

The two are often the same, O.

Yes. And those cinemas had the freedom to choose. They didn't choose Christianity - boo hoo... that's not a ban, that's a commentary on the relevance of Christianity in the 21st Century in Britain.

Actually, no the cinemas didn't have the freedom to choose.  The refusal to allow the advert (not a ban, as you correctly say) was taken by an agency that provides said cinemas with advertising material.

[Hope]

Actually they have decided not to allow any adverts that are political or religious (and they are clear that overt atheist advertising would not be permitted either).

I have been surprised that no-one picked this up when I originally pointed this out in a post fairly early in the thread.

I found the reason given quite amusing - it all came out of the fall-out from their running competing adverts from the two Scottish Independence Referendum campaigns.

Whether that was a good enough reason to refuse any adverts from political or religious groups is open to debate, but as I've previously said that's a debate for another thread.

[Shaker]

Just a couple of weeks ago many of us enjoyed fireworks at an event that derived from anti catholic sentiment in the early 17thC - I doubt that many of us believe in that anti catholic sentiment now.

I doubt that a majority of the population even know about it.

[ippy]

Dear Outrider,

Is it? Like coming together to remember, but Our Lord had different ideas when it came to prayer, quiet contemplation, nothing wrong with a bit of quiet contemplation.

Gonnagle.

Yes Gonners I suppose your lord would, if in fact it ever existed.

Our Lord Dawkins wouldn't go with your imagination Gonners, nor Our other Lord, The Most Reverent Lord Harris.

Lord, what a load of old B_______s.

ippy

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

Yes Gonners I suppose your lord would, if in fact it ever existed.

Not an it, a he.

Gonnagle.

[Outrider]

So, why is it called Christmas?

Have you noticed that it's only called Christmas in areas where Christianity held sway for a long time? It's like our language is shaped by history!!!

I am not denying that previous traditions existed, though never, to my knowledge, on Dec 25th - but Christmas is a Christian festival in the same way that Samhain and Beltane are Pagan festivals for their respective times of year.

And Hanukkah, and Diwali, and Pancha Ganapati, and Malkh, and Modraniht, Dies Natalis Solas Invicti (specifically December 25th), Yule, Yalda, Sadeh, Maslenitsa, Malanka. I'm not denying that Christmas is a festival for Christians, but it's also the cultural name for the midwinter festival in many post-Christian societies where people celebrate, but what they celebrate isn't Jesus.

Commercial interests have only partially hijacked the Christmas Festival, since we still have the Christian aspects of it being celebrated.

Which 'we' is this? You might, I sure as hell don't, and I know a large number of other people who don't.

Without those Christian elements we would never have had 'Christmas'.  There is nothing wrong, in my view, in reminding people what the festival actually means - in exactly the same way that I would have no problem with adverts reminding people what Samhain and Beltane, Saturnalia and Eid al-Fitr, etc. mean for those who celebrate them.

Whereas I do see a problem with claiming that the festival 'really means' anything about Jesus at all. For me it means family, forgetting about work and day-to-day demands, and spending some time just revelling in the company of the people in the world that mean the most to you. If you want to add religious elements to your celebration, if you want to entirely replace that family stuff with religion, you go knock yourself out, that's your choice.

There is no 'real' meaning to the season, it's an opportunity for everyone to decide for themselves what they want to make of it.

To an extent, the fact that so few people know what these various festivals mean points to the way in which we as a society have become divorced from our cultural roots.

At some point, the trivialities of the past become unimportant - they might be interesting, but the details are irrelevant. If everyone gradually forgot that Hades was supposed to have kidnapped Persephone from Demeter and that the pomegranate seeds she ate are the reason for winter, guess what - we'd still have winter. Persephone is not the 'real meaning' of winter.

O.

[Outrider]

Yet no-one has ever managed to provide any evidence for that opinion and (before Shakes tries his much-loved negative-proof fallacy trick) an opinion is equivalent to an assertion so that opinion needs to have some supportin evidence.

So people say special words, with a ritual ending, and think that something's going to change in reality - how is that not casting a spell? I know that you are one of the more sophisticated Christians who don't believe that prayer is about asking for things and expecting them to happen, but you can't pretend that those people are not out there. In this instance, the words of this ritual are asking for an intervention 'give us this day our daily bread', 'deliver us not into temptation', 'deliver us from evil'...

The two are often the same, O.

Give me a bucket of water and a prayer and I can wash just as well as I can with a bucket of water.

Actually, no the cinemas didn't have the freedom to choose.  The refusal to allow the advert (not a ban, as you correctly say) was taken by an agency that provides said cinemas with advertising material.

And which is guided in its policy making by the major cinema chains, with whom it consulted previously to establish this policy. Yes, the cinemas did have the freedom to choose, and they chose to exercise that freedom in asking their agency to implement that policy.

O.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Outrider,

Whereas I do see a problem with claiming that the festival 'really means' anything about Jesus at all. For me it means family, forgetting about work and day-to-day demands, and spending some time just revelling in the company of the people in the world that mean the most to you. If you want to add religious elements to your celebration, if you want to entirely replace that family stuff with religion, you go knock yourself out, that's your choice.

All thanks too, religion it's an insidious bugger.

Gonnagle.

[Outrider]

Dear Outrider,

All thanks too, religion it's an insidious bugger.

Gonnagle.

Anything good is God's fault, right

O.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Outrider,

Anything good is God's fault, right

Pass

And I think you would need to explain first, what is God.

Anyway, if anyone is interested this topic/thread, is going to be discussed on Jeremy vine, radio 2.

Gonnagle.

[Spud]

Jesus is not 'the reason for the season' - the reason is to do with orbital mechanics meaning there is a point where the days stop getting shorter and start getting longer again. Christianity hijacked that observation by earlier traditions, and consumerism hijacked that.

The reason for the season is whatever you want it to be.

O.

Astronomically speaking, the winter solstice is when the new year begins, and historically speaking it's when the 2016th year of our Lord begins.

And I don't go to the cinema, its too expensive!

[floo]

Astronomically speaking, the winter solstice is when the new year begins, and historically speaking it's when the 2016th year of our Lord begins.

You have no real idea when Jesus was born, it was highly unlikely to have been on December 25th nearly 2016 years ago

[Spud]

Actually, another reason why I don't go to the cinema is because of the advertising, which is often unsuitable. Bring down the price and bring in the Lord's prayer and I might start going again.

[Spud]

You have no real idea when Jesus was born, it was highly unlikely to have been on December 25th nearly 2016 years ago

Off topic alert...
That doesn't matter, His birth was a historical event that occurred around that time.

[floo]

Actually, another reason why I don't go to the cinema is because of the advertising, which is often unsuitable. Bring down the price and bring in the Lord's prayer and I might start going again.

The 'Lord's Prayer' is probably a load of lying garbage.

[floo]

That doesn't matter, His birth was a historical event that occurred around that time.

You want to believe that but it certainly can't be regarded as historical!

[Outrider]

Astronomically speaking, the winter solstice is when the new year begins, and historically speaking it's when the 2016th year of our Lord begins.

Astronomically speaking, the season does include the winter solstice, yes. Historically it's been when people celebrated the birth of Jesus (even though the depictions of the activities suggests early spring); it's also when a number of other religious traditions celebrate elements of their faith practices.

O.

[Outrider]

Actually, another reason why I don't go to the cinema is because of the advertising, which is often unsuitable. Bring down the price and bring in the Lord's prayer and I might start going again.

If you want cheap entertainment and the Lord's prayer, don't bother with a cinema, go to a church - everything you want, little risk of bad language and most of the time you can take your pick of seats, too.

O.

[Gonnagle]

Dear atheist,

The Lord has spoken.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/22/richard-dawkins-says-uk-cinemas-should-screen-the-lords-prayer

Gonnagle.

[Outrider]

Dear atheist,

The Lord has spoken.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/22/richard-dawkins-says-uk-cinemas-should-screen-the-lords-prayer

Gonnagle.

Why did he have to do that? Vlud's going to have a 'Dawkins'-gasm all over the site now...

O.