Christianity banned from cinemas

[BeRational]

You do know tha

Of course:  but you don't have to join in if you don't want.

Have to join in with Noddy

[BashfulAnthony]

You do know that carols are played in shops to get people to buy more stuff, don't you, BA?

Of course:  but you don't have to join in if you don't want.

[BashfulAnthony]

You could look to the church attendance figures, I dare say, which are very likely highest at Christmas but in relation to the population as a whole are still tiny.
And waste valuable shopping time? You must be joking.

Going to, church, or not, does not prove thing about whether you accept the Christmas story, or not.  Unless you can quote some figures, as I asked?

Don't want you to waste time:  you must get in all your Christmas cards, and stuff.

[Rhiannon]

Of course:  but you don't have to join in if you don't want.

With the carols? No, I don't.

[BashfulAnthony]

With the carols? No, I don't.

Some will, even if they don't believe it all.

[Rhiannon]

Some will, even if they don't believe it all.

Of course. Which is fine; it's only hypocritical to do so if you are pretending to believe when you don't.

[Shaker]

We all carve out our own meanings for Christmas.

Christmas has been comprehensively privatised; you make of it whatever you want to make of it and give it your own meanings and create your own traditions. Certain human traits are universal and perennial - I'm thinking of the desire for warmth, light and colour at the darkest and drabbest time of year, and especially the love for family - so it's hardly a surprise that so many people do the same things.

I wonder what makes you think that you have the right to try to impose yours on others.

I don't think he's trying to do that, but in the teeth of all evidence he's trying to convince us that an incredibly old-fashioned sepia-tinted caricature of the "perfect" Christmas - through the snow to church in the morning, back home for Christmas lunch and then gather round the Bakelite wireless to hear the King's Christmas broadcast - is still a reality, presumably on the basis that he wishes it were still so. Yet again Bashers and the modern world are sharply at variance.

[BashfulAnthony]

Of course. Which is fine; it's only hypocritical to do so if you are pretending to believe when you don't.

And I think that is happening.  I wonder how many atheists actually make it clear to their children, or the children of friends, that they don't believe in Christ, and Christmas?  Pretty shattering and to a child to have such a revelation thrown at them! 

[Shaker]

Some will, even if they don't believe it all.

Some will even if they don't believe any of it, because some people enjoy a nice tune.

[Shaker]

And I think that is happening.  I wonder how many atheists actually make it clear to their children, or the children of friends, that they don't believe in Christ, and Christmas?  Pretty shattering and to a child to have such a revelation thrown at them!

Are you for real?

[ProfessorDavey]

Some will, even if they don't believe it all.

yup I will be singing carols until the cows come home between now and the week before Christmas, including at a concert and several charity fundraising events.

Why? Because I love singing and it is completely irrelevant whether I believe the words or not (I don't by the way), it doesn't affect my enjoyment of singing.

And earlier this month I sang at a concert with a piece with words by Blake, and guess what, I'm not a Blake-ist. Also there was a piece about the First World War, but I am broadly a pacifist. Another written to celebrate a military victory by the British over the French, yet I am certainly not a Francophobe who wants to see them soundly beaten - again, far from it.

So I really don't understand your point BA.

[BashfulAnthony]

Some will even if they don't believe any of it, because some people enjoy a nice tune.

And of course, being atheists, hypocrisy is second nature to them.   

[Shaker]

And of course, being atheists, hypocrisy is second nature to them.   

What's hypocritical about enjoying music?

[BashfulAnthony]

What's hypocritical about enjoying music?

As long as you don't ever join in with the words, of course;  and to suggest plenty of atheists don't join in, is naive.

[ProfessorDavey]

As long as you don't ever join in with the words, of course;  and to suggest plenty of atheists don't join in, is naive.

Yup that's me - I enjoy singing all sorts of things including carols. But why does that make me a hypocrite - there is no rule that says you can't sing something less you believe it.

Do your really believe its fun to stay at the YMCA as you are singing along BA?

[BashfulAnthony]

Yup that's me - I enjoy singing all sorts of things including carols. But why does that make me a hypocrite - there is no rule that says you can't sing something less you believe it.

Do your really believe its fun to stay at the YMCA as you are singing along BA?

You could hum!  I think it a bit much to join in carols, at a specifically Christian celebration, when you repudiate all the song stands for.  Have the courage of your convictions.

[Shaker]

As long as you don't ever join in with the words, of course;  and to suggest plenty of atheists don't join in, is naive.

What a dismal, shrivelled, wizened view of life you must have where even the enjoyment of a nice melody irrespective of the words is, according to you, "hypocritical." That takes a rare degree of utter joylessness.

[Rhiannon]

You could hum!  I think it a bit much to join in carols, at a specifically Christian celebration, when you repudiate all the song stands for.  Have the courage of your convictions.

They aren't magic words, BA.

[Gordon]

Some will, even if they don't believe it all.

Some people insist on calling the day after Wednesday 'Thursday' without reference to either Thor or Jupiter: it is just the label that is now convention.

On this same basis 'Christmas' is used by non-Christians and is in no sense is cap-doffing towards your choice of religion. I have a friend who makes a point of sending ' 'Happy Saturnalia' but personally I couldn't be bothered enough to make the effort she does.

I'm happy enough that the kids in the family enjoy and that Boxing Day brings a high standard of horse-racing to be enjoyed: apart from that I really don't give a damn about carols, pine-trees, Bing or Slade, festive editions of TV shows I don't watch normally or what the 'message' is that the Queen/Pope/Moderator of the Church of Scotland choose to inflict on us via the media assuming that we should all be aware of what these characters say.

Apart from that though!

[Rhiannon]

Christmas has been comprehensively privatised; you make of it whatever you want to make of it and give it your own meanings and create your own traditions. Certain human traits are universal and perennial - I'm thinking of the desire for warmth, light and colour at the darkest and drabbest time of year, and especially the love for family - so it's hardly a surprise that so many people do the same things.
I don't think he's trying to do that, but in the teeth of all evidence he's trying to convince us that an incredibly old-fashioned sepia-tinted caricature of the "perfect" Christmas - through the snow to church in the morning, back home for Christmas lunch and then gather round the Bakelite wireless to hear the King's Christmas broadcast - is still a reality, presumably on the basis that he wishes it were still so. Yet again Bashers and the modern world are sharply at variance.

But he's pretty clear that we can't send Christmas cards or sing carols unless we're believers. And that feels like a pretty big imposition of his views over those of others.

[BashfulAnthony]

What a dismal, shrivelled, wizened view of life you must have where even the enjoyment of a nice melody irrespective of the words is, according to you, "hypocritical." That takes a rare degree of utter joylessness.

Not even a good try.  You can listen, and enjoy the tunes; but I was referring to the act of joining in, singing the words  Do read more carefully.

As to a "dismal, shrivelled, wizened view of life,"  well that is exactly how I've always pictured you; and your posting fully demonstrates that.

[Shaker]

Not even a good try.  You can listen, and enjoy the tunes; but I was referring to the act of joining in, singing the words  Do read more carefully.

What difference does that make? As Rhi said (and you ignored, true to form), they're not magic.

As to a "dismal, shrivelled, wizened view of life,"  well that is exactly how I've always pictured you; and your posting fully demonstrates that.

And yet I'm the one who enjoys a good tune wherever it comes from and whatever the words might be.

[BashfulAnthony]

What difference does that make? As Rhi said (and you ignored, true to form), they're not magic.
And yet I'm the one who enjoys a good tune wherever it comes from and whatever the words might be.

However you wriggle  -  which you have to do so often  -  singing Christmas carols at Christmas, as an atheist, is hypocritical, cowardly and deceitful.   

[Shaker]

However you wriggle  -  which you have to do so often  -  singing Christmas carols at Christmas, as an atheist, is hypocritical, cowardly and deceitful.   

No it isn't, and for all your posturing you haven't furnished us with a single scrap of a reason to think so.

But I tell you what: run away from the discussion yet again saying that you've said all you're going to say, despite convincing nobody.

[BashfulAnthony]

No it isn't, and for all your posturing you haven't furnished us with a single scrap of a reason to think so.

But I tell you what: run away from the discussion yet again saying that you've said all you're going to say, despite convincing nobody.

Who's running away? 

I don't really expect to change your mind about anything,  You are so closed-minded and dogmatic, that it would be a minor miracle to change your mind.  As my first headmaster said to me, so long ago: "when faced with pig-ignorant dogmatism and failure to concede anything, however ridiculous the position, you can only keep chipping away." 

Having said all that, I shall now leave, for tea; not running, but sedately wending my way, having put you in your place    place.