Author Topic: Christianity banned from cinemas  (Read 99404 times)

Shaker

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #425 on: November 24, 2015, 04:38:45 PM »
Yet he accuses others of hypocrisy when they do exactly the same.

Which sounds to me like ... err ... hypocrisy.
My nominally/culturally but actually non-religious Hindu neigbours don't believe in any of the trappings of Christianity, send Christmas cards but are not (according to BA) hypocrites, whereas atheists in exactly the same position (according to BA) are.

I'm still trying to work out how that one stacks up.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #426 on: November 24, 2015, 04:40:39 PM »
My nominally/culturally but actually non-religious Hindu neigbours don't believe in any of the trappings of Christianity, send Christmas cards but are not (according to BA) hypocrites, whereas atheists in exactly the same position (according to BA) are.

I'm still trying to work out how that one stacks up.
And I'd be astonished if BA restricts his Christmas celebrations to things which are clearly linked to the Christian nativity story and never adds anything linked to the pagan mid winter celebration.

Shaker

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #427 on: November 24, 2015, 04:42:52 PM »
And I'd be astonished if BA restricts his Christmas celebrations to things which are clearly linked to the Christian nativity story and never adds anything linked to the pagan mid winter celebration.
Well, there's only one way to find out - send round a PC (Proper Christmas) from the Nottinghamshire CCC (Christian Christmas Constabulary) to inspect BA's house for any ideological impurities, in the Christmas cards he sends and receives for example.

One robin sitting on a snowy fence and he's for the high jump  ;)
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jakswan

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #428 on: November 24, 2015, 04:48:28 PM »
I only found out the other day Xmas trees are forbidden in the Bible!
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #429 on: November 24, 2015, 05:49:08 PM »
BA,

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I'm not devoid of good will: just ant-hypocrisy.

Damn those hypocritical ants.

If I'm invited to a vegetarian's house for dinner, I'll eat vegetarian; if I'm invited to a mosque and asked to take my shoes off, I'll take my shoes off; if I'm asked to come to a carol service when some of the lyrics are Christian in nature, I'll sing away.

None of these things are hypocritical at all - just good manners.

What would you do in those circumstances? 

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jeremyp

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #430 on: November 24, 2015, 06:36:40 PM »
I'm not sure the first can be justified as the name is extremely important.
The first paragraph is factually correct.

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Were Christians in the UK to call Christmas, 'Yule' instead of Christmas I don't think it would be reasonable to conclude that 'Yule' is a Christian festival based on the nativity.

But the situation is different. The Christian Easter can be traced back to a set of late first century documents that link it to the Jewish Pesach. There are no such early documents for Christmas. Furthermore, some traditions associated with Yule seem to have survived, but we know nothing about any festivities associated with Eostre. 

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Rather we would conclude that the Christian nativity festival had 'co-opted' an earlier pagan festival associated with mid winter and added their religious elements while retaining the name of that older festival.
The earliest attestation to Yule dates from the 4th century and so does the earliest attestation to Christmas.

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Ricky Spanish

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #431 on: November 24, 2015, 08:39:31 PM »
It hasn't been rejected because it is offensive. It's been rejected because DCM received the request and immediately saw that this could be the first of many: religion is a hot topic, and whilst this is relatively innoffensive, others might not be.

Normally that would a 'slippery slope' argument, I'd agree, they can review each advert on its own merits, but the law places strict limits on their capacity to make independent judgments between various religions.

Understanding that, and in light of the backlash from their experience with Scottish independence campaign adverts, they opted for a policy where they aren't going to be showing religious or political adverts.

That's not 'a ban', it's a commercial decision. No-one is stopping anyone else saying anything, a company is choosing not to say it themselves.

O.
Fair dos Outie.

My personal feelings are - if they decide to ban an ad promoting a prayer website where does it end?

Wish they could use the same excuses to ban ALL christmas advertising on the telly to!!
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Outrider

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #432 on: November 24, 2015, 08:43:47 PM »
My personal feelings are - if they decide to ban an ad promoting a prayer website where does it end?

In principal I'm in favour of the idea that people should be allowed to say what they like and we can judge them on it. The bland, inoffensive pap of the Church of England could then just be largely ignored for the meaningless nothing that it is, whilst more objectionable views could be challenged. Unfortunately, there are Daily Mail and Sun readers allowed out in public without someone to explain for them.

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Wish they could use the same excuses to ban ALL christmas advertising on the telly to!!

Maybe not all of it, but there are traditionally twelve days of Christmas, and none of them are in November!

O.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #433 on: November 24, 2015, 09:03:30 PM »
The first paragraph is factually correct.

But the situation is different. The Christian Easter can be traced back to a set of late first century documents that link it to the Jewish Pesach. There are no such early documents for Christmas. Furthermore, some traditions associated with Yule seem to have survived, but we know nothing about any festivities associated with Eostre. 
The earliest attestation to Yule dates from the 4th century and so does the earliest attestation to Christmas.
It is about time and place. The Christian Paschal can certainly be traced back to the first century, but not the Christian Easter, which is a peculiarity, that can only trace its origin back to the Christianisation of Britain in the 7thC.

So perhaps my Yule analogy wasn't the best, and I wasn't using it in the context of being accurate on timing etc, merely as an example.

So try this one. Imagine that in a particular country with a specific religious tradition there was festival called 'Jump-tide' named after the Autumn god Jump. Then a new religion came into that country and eventually over a century or so that new religion became the dominant one. They had a different festival marking the death of their deity Smash - which they called Smash-son. Bit by bit the people start to mark Smash-son, but unlike everywhere else they continue to describe it as Jump-tide'. I think you'd argue that, at the very least the new religion stole the name, or more likely that the new religion co-opted the older festival and added their religious elements while retaining the name of that older festival.

It wouldn't really make any difference if Smash-son predated Jump-tide elsewhere, merely that Jump-tide predated Smash-son in that particular country, which certainly seems to be the case with Easter compared to Paschal in Anglo-saxon England.

So on Easter, the key dates aren't the 1stC but the 7thC when Christianity became properly embedded in England replacing polytheistic paganism. And Bede (who was writing at the time) is clear in seeing a distinction between Easter (being the old pagan festival) and Paschal (the term he uses to describe the new Christian festival). Yet somehow the term Paschal never took hold.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 09:13:10 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Shaker

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #434 on: November 25, 2015, 01:57:54 AM »
The real truth of this is that you non-believers simply want to indulge in Christmas festivities
We want to, and we do.
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and you make these arguments to try and justify your participation.
Participation is justified by the fact that it's enjoyable, which is usually sufficient justification for doing almost anything in life, I find.
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I bet you have a Christmas dinner.
I have dinner every other of the 364 days in the year, Bashers; I don't make an exception because it's Christmas. Or is that what non-believers are supposed to do, fast? Not our thing, old fruit.
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Why not make up a Pagan dinner, or whatever dinner you want
What would a pagan dinner consist of? I wouldn't know where to start.
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instead of hi-jacking a specifically Christian tradition?
Because it isn't one. Christianity doesn't own eating as well as arbitrary positions of the Earth in its orbit around the Sun and every word in the English language.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 02:02:50 AM by Shaker »
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #435 on: November 25, 2015, 02:31:38 AM »
We want to, and we do.Participation is justified by the fact that it's enjoyable, which is usually sufficient justification for doing almost anything in life, I find.I have dinner every other of the 364 days in the year, Bashers; I don't make an exception because it's Christmas. Or is that what non-believers are supposed to do, fast? Not our thing, old fruit.What would a pagan dinner consist of? I wouldn't know where to start.Because it isn't one. Christianity doesn't own eating as well as arbitrary positions of the Earth in its orbit around the Sun and every word in the English language.

Good old Shaky, lame, unconvincing, and as hypocritical as ever.
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Maeght

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #436 on: November 25, 2015, 07:38:53 AM »
Christmas festivities are part of our culture and has become a time to spend with family and friends. Most people I know see it as this and not as a celebration of the birth of Jesus, although clearly there are many people who do see it as that. I send Christmas cards, have a Christmas dinner and exchange presents because that is what you do at Christmas. I don't sing carols as I find it inappropriate for a non-believer. I don't care whether Christmas is based is a pagan festival or not - to me it is just a cultural tradition which I  join in with as it is the done thing and it is nice to have one day focused on families.

Back to the topic of the thread. I have watched the Lords Prayer 'advert' and didn't find anything wrong or offensive with it but can understand why the cinemas or their advertisers have introduced a policy regarding religious and political advertising and think they have every right so to do provided it shows consistency for all religions and political parties and issues.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #437 on: November 25, 2015, 07:45:23 AM »
Good old Shaky, lame, unconvincing, and as hypocritical as ever.
I would have thought that having a big feast to mark the mid winter point, the turning of the year so to speak, is pretty inherently pagan, at the very least with a small 'p'.

Sassy

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #438 on: November 25, 2015, 07:50:55 AM »
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: Sassy on November 23, 2015, 12:22:04 AM
Seen the said advert.. Not selling anything...
Outrider:
Then why do they need an advert?

Why do you need an advert for anything? To let people know as a nation prayer is important in such times.

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Prayer is about enlightenment and spiritual need.
Outrider:
That's one opinion. Prayer is about trying to cast magic is another opinion.


What type of magic and how does it work? Does it work? Well are you sure you really thought and understood what you wrote?
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Hair shampoo is for those who have hair. Christian prayer is for those who have faith.
Outrider:
So why churn it out at a showing of a work of fiction in which the major factions are involved with a concept based on a Buddhist/Taoist framework?

Ignorance must be bliss for you.


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Sometimes it is good to remind people that God is always there to pray to.
Outrider:
Is it? I disagree, it's never worthwhile getting people to pray, it's better to get them to do something useful.

Just say for instance you don't go fishing or even drive then adverts for fishing tackle or Cars would not really be of interest to you.
But you seem to think that you can be prejudicial towards people of faith and not those who fish or drive cars because the advert
is not to your particular beliefs or activities. Grow up O.



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Just because they advertise shampoo doesn't mean everyone will need it or use it. But they get the choice that is the freedom to choose... :)
Outrider:
Yes. And those cinemas had the freedom to choose. They didn't choose Christianity - boo hoo... that's not a ban, that's a commentary on the relevance of Christianity in the 21st Century in Britain.

O.

People who don't drive have to watch the car adverts at Cinemas. People who do not use mobile phones have had to watch the Orange adds for years. The relevance of Christianity is that it has been around a lot longer than the things advertised in Cinemas and it is the religion of this Country, You might not like it, but tough live with it...
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 07:53:52 AM by Sassy »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #439 on: November 25, 2015, 08:14:49 AM »
Good old Shaky, lame, unconvincing, and as hypocritical as ever.
to the tune of of Rawhide


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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #440 on: November 25, 2015, 08:57:49 AM »
to the tune of of Rawhide


'Trollin', trollin', trollin'. Keep those posts a-trolling, raw shite'

Ooooh, you used the word 'shite'.  :-[

Now expect a 'low life', 'gutter language', 'bad manners' type, telling off.

(something that doesn't seem to happen for the same offence if you are Vlad! Just an observation. ::) )
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Rhiannon

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #441 on: November 25, 2015, 09:02:02 AM »
BA, can you tell me what a pagan dinner is? I had no idea such a thing existed.

Rhiannon

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #442 on: November 25, 2015, 09:31:31 AM »
Couldn't resist  ;) :P

http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/holidaysandcelebrations/tp/PaganSabbatRecipes.htm

The buttered rum sounds nice

http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/yulecooking/r/Buttered_Rum.htm

Yum!

http://recipesforapagansoul.weebly.com/samhain-oct-31.html

I'm in danger of going off topic, but it's all just seasonal food - that's what the Wheel is, for those who keep it - observing the seasons. Not that all pagans do. But it's not really different from what most people eat at differing times of the year.

The only celebration meal that I can think of that is tied specifically to the beliefs around the particular festival is the tradition of eating milky dishes around Imbolc, which is linked by some to the pregnancy and milk of ewes, but even that isn't definitive.

Maeght

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #443 on: November 25, 2015, 09:34:45 AM »

People who don't drive have to watch the car adverts at Cinemas. People who do not use mobile phones have had to watch the Orange adds for years.

Are you really comparing religious beliefs to whether you drive or use a mobile phone?

Outrider

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #444 on: November 25, 2015, 09:55:38 AM »
Why do you need an advert for anything?
To sell more, occasionally for public information purposes, although less so these days it seems.

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To let people know as a nation prayer is important in such times.

That's a claim I'd love to see the ASA have a look over :) Prayer is important to some people, perhaps, but that says something about them rather than about prayer.

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What type of magic and how does it work? Does it work? Well are you sure you really thought and understood what you wrote?

I've no idea, I didn't realise there were different 'types' of magic, given that they're all imaginary. How does it work? It doesn't, from the evidence. Did I think that through - yes, that's just one of the reasons I don't do it.

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Ignorance must be bliss for you.

Yours or mine? Yours makes this like shooting fish in a barrel, which isn't that much fun but it is important. My ignorance, in the areas where I am ignorant, are wonderful - they give me things to learn.

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Just say for instance you don't go fishing or even drive then adverts for fishing tackle or Cars would not really be of interest to you. But you seem to think that you can be prejudicial towards people of faith and not those who fish or drive cars because the advert is not to your particular beliefs or activities.

No, I haven't decided that I don't want to show it, it's not my decision. The cinema advertising agency has decided that, on balance, getting involved in religious advertising would agitate or irritate more of its customers than would be happy. That might not be a comment, specifically, on this advert, but on the concept of religious advertising generally. That's their call, not mine. I can see their reasoning - the acrimony on here shows that it's a contentious issue when it is an inoffensive example, imagine the possibilities if some fringe group wanted to put their beliefs on the screen.

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Grow up O.

What, you mean look at the bigger picture with an awareness of possible implications of a policy with an eye to the legal implications of the anti-discrimination legislation? Or do you mean cry because my club isn't special any more and make up stories about 'bans' and complain that someone else exercising their right to free speech is 'censorship' because they aren't saying what I want them to?

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People who don't drive have to watch the car adverts at Cinemas. People who do not use mobile phones have had to watch the Orange adds for years.

The DCM's opinion is that car adverts and mobile phone adverts are unlikely to offend non-drivers and non-callers excessively, whilst religious advertising will irritate other religious viewpoints. They may be right or wrong, but that's their freedom of speech decision to make - they choose what topics they will carry and what topics they won't.

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The relevance of Christianity is that it has been around a lot longer than the things advertised in Cinemas and it is the religion of this Country, You might not like it, but tough live with it...

I've had to live with it all my life. And, thankfully, it's having less and less of an impact, becoming less and less relevant. This advertising is, obviously, an attempt to rectify that from the church's point of view, and the cinema chains have decided they don't want to be a part of that. Church's already have their own tax-exempt locations to pray from, they already have priveleged access to schools, they already have reserved time on the national state broadcaster - they aren't short of forced outlets for their speech.

Cinemas are under no compulsion to represent them if they don't want to. They don't want to.

O.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #445 on: November 25, 2015, 11:00:36 AM »
to the tune of of Rawhide


'Trollin', trollin', trollin'. Keep those posts a-trolling, raw shite'

 :D :D  despite the last word!   
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jeremyp

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #446 on: November 25, 2015, 12:50:37 PM »
It is about time and place. The Christian Paschal can certainly be traced back to the first century, but not the Christian Easter,

It's the same thing but with a different name, probably depriving from the name of the month in which it usually fell.

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So perhaps my Yule analogy wasn't the best, and I wasn't using it in the context of being accurate on timing etc, merely as an example.

I understand that, but I think Yule was a festival that was co-opted or merged with the Christian Christmas. We still have Yule logs and I think that the "Twelve Days of Christmas" are a relic of Yule. Christmas itself is almost certainly a Christianising of some Roman solstice festival e.g. Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, especially when you consider that there is no gospel justification for such a festival.

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I think you'd argue that, at the very least the new religion stole the name

I'd certainly agree with that as far as Easter is concerned except that the name may only come from the name of the ancient month rather than any particular festival in it.

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or more likely that the new religion co-opted the older festival and added their religious elements

There is no evidence that this happened with Easter, whereas there is evidence it happened with Christmas.

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So on Easter, the key dates aren't the 1stC but the 7thC when Christianity became properly embedded in England replacing polytheistic paganism.
But the question is "did Easter taker over any festivals that were there before?" and there is no evidence that it did. Other festivals may have fallen into disuse as a result of Christianity taking over bur none of their customs seem to have made it into Easter.

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And Bede (who was writing at the time) is clear in seeing a distinction between Easter (being the old pagan festival) and Paschal (the term he uses to describe the new Christian festival). Yet somehow the term Paschal never took hold.
If Bede thinks there is a distinction between Christian Easter and other contemporary festivals, then surely that is evidence that these festivals were not merged in with Christian Easter?
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jeremyp

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #447 on: November 25, 2015, 12:57:28 PM »
I bet you have a Christmas dinner.  Why not make up a Pagan dinner, or whatever dinner you want, instead of hi-jacking a specifically Christian tradition?

What is specifically Christian about a turkey dinner with roast potatoes , stuffing, pigs in blankets and brussels sprouts  followed by Christmas pudding? Which of those items I listed would Jesus' family have eaten on his birthday?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #448 on: November 25, 2015, 02:59:54 PM »
Vlad,

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My personal feelings are - if they decide to ban an ad promoting a prayer website where does it end?

Once again, they have not - and could not - "ban" anything. Bans are generally imposed by official agencies - this outfit is a commercial business that's merely decided to have a commercial policy not to accept business from religious or political clients, any religious or political clients.

If for whatever reason you decided that you didn't like Japanese cars, then the man from your local Toyota dealership rang you with a special offer and you declined would you have "banned" Toyota or just decided not to do business with them?

The more pertinent question by the way would be, if they did accept this ad, where would it end? Scientologists? Fred Phelps? ISIS?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 03:08:24 PM by bluehillside »
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Christianity banned from cinemas
« Reply #449 on: November 25, 2015, 03:01:46 PM »
What is specifically Christian about a turkey dinner with roast potatoes , stuffing, pigs in blankets and brussels sprouts  followed by Christmas pudding? Which of those items I listed would Jesus' family have eaten on his birthday?
Does anyone have a cake with 2000+ candles on it planned for their table?  :-\
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