Christianity banned from cinemas

[bluehillside Retd.]

a_o,

Firstly, all Christians celebrate the Feast of the Nativity on the 25th of December. Work it out! Secondly, the 25th of December is not a date "merely plucked from the air". As I said on "The Trinity" thread:

"Both the scriptures and creation mystically point to midwinter. We know that St. John the Baptist was born six months before our Lord and in the Gospel he says of Christ "He must increase, but I must decrease". Creation also testifies to this, for the Church celebrates the Nativity of St. John the Baptist on midsummer after which the Sun decreases, and the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ on midwinter after which the Sun increases. Both the liturgical calendar and the cosmos are in harmony and of that we should not be surprised for creation speaks of him through whom all things were made."

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=9512.msg563030#msg563030

First, not all christians do that at all.

Second, "mystically pointing" is fun and all if you like that kind of thing but the fact remains that many cultures from many places at many different times have come up with many different gods and given all of them the same birthday - the winter solstice - for fairly obvious reasons to do with the symbolism of the "birth" of a new year.

Now if you want to claim not only that your god is the only real one but also, by a remarkable co-incidence, that he happened to have the same birthday as many of the preceding false ones that's up to you but evidentially it's looking a bit suspect don't you think?

 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gonners,

Help me out here, where am I going wrong in my thinking.

Christmas, Christ's Mass, Mass, The Eucharist, atheists are celebrating this?

No - the winter solstice festival long pre-dates the arrival of christianity, and was already embedded in our (and other) cultures before then. The christian faith came relatively late to the party, became powerful enough to have it re-branded "Christmas" and added a few rituals and symbols of its own. To a large extent the influence of christianity in this country at least has declined, but we're still left with some of the trappings it brought (literally) to the table.

These days, unless they happen to be christians, most folks are happy enough to enjoy the fact of holiday and a bit of a knees up with no particular reference to the baby Jesus, despite the bleatings of the BAs of this world that his faith somehow claims squatters rights over it. 

Presumably though BA would not accept a charge of hypocrisy for having a christmas tree - a ritual heavily laden with pre-christian symbolism, later re-popularised by the Victorians - because he doesn't believe sincerely in paganism. Now that's hypocritical!

     

[Hope]

No - the winter solstice festival long pre-dates the arrival of christianity, and was already embedded in our (and other) cultures before then.

And wasn't traditionally celebrated on Dec 25th.  More often than not, it was celebrated 3 days earlier on the 22nd.

By the way, at which point did the year's beginning become 'January 1st'.  Would older cultures have had the new year starting immediately after the solstice?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hope,

And wasn't traditionally celebrated on Dec 25th.  More often than not, it was celebrated 3 days earlier on the 22nd.

By the way, at which point did the year's beginning become 'January 1st'.  Would older cultures have had the new year starting immediately after the solstice?

It's more complicated than that, and has to do with calendrics. As calendars were introduced they tended to get the exact length of the year wrong, so festival dates drifted over time. Either way though, the winter "old year out, new year in" festival tradition is pretty universal, so it's hardly surprising that christianity adopted it too. 

[ad_orientem]

Really, and there was me thinking that Christmas was celebrated on the 7th Jan in some places, for example Russia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_Russia

And Greece, and Ukraine etc etc

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11329660/Where-is-Christmas-being-celebrated-on-January-7.html

Only according to the Gregorian calendar.

[Hope]

Firstly, all Christians celebrate the Feast of the Nativity on the 25th of December. Work it out!

This is actually a misnomer, a_o, and will, to an extent, depend on which calender one is working on.  Some Orthodox believers celebrate early in what we would call January.  Whilst we were working in nepal, the Nepalese church was seriously considering moving Christmas to the end of October/early November, so as to coincide with what is the main Nepalese cultural festival.

Secondly, the 25th of December is not a date "merely plucked from the air". As I said on "The Trinity" thread:

"Both the scriptures and creation mystically point to midwinter. ...

Except, of course, for those passages that suggest that it occurred at a different time of year.  And therein lies the problem: there is no Biblical passage that provides a definitive timing of the event.  However, extra-Biblical records - such the Roman records concerning the census and scientific records concerning the comet that is likely the 'star' - place the event sometime in early to mid-autumn - late September/early October.

... We know that St. John the Baptist was born six months before our Lord and in the Gospel he says of Christ "He must increase, but I must decrease". Creation also testifies to this, for the Church celebrates the Nativity of St. John the Baptist on midsummer after which the Sun decreases, and the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ on midwinter after which the Sun increases. Both the liturgical calendar and the cosmos are in harmony and of that we should not be surprised for creation speaks of him through whom all things were made."
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=9512.msg563030#msg563030

As I understand it from what I have read, the celebration of Jesus' birth didn't become common until the 3rd or 4th century AD, and most saints' days became popular in the 4th or 5th, so dating Christmas by referring to a saint's day is the wrong way round.

[ad_orientem]

a_o,

First, not all christians do that at all.

Second, "mystically pointing" is fun and all if you like that kind of thing but the fact remains that many cultures from many places at many different times have come up with many different gods and given all of them the same birthday - the winter solstice - for fairly obvious reasons to do with the symbolism of the "birth" of a new year.

Now if you want to claim not only that your god is the only real one but also, by a remarkable co-incidence, that he happened to have the same birthday as many of the preceding false ones that's up to you but evidentially it's looking a bit suspect don't you think?

Even the Russians and the Greeks celebrate the Nativity on the 25th of December, just not according to the Gregorian calendar. I thought people knew that.

As for the pagans, they saw creation pointng towards a certain time but they did not know what it was they were celebrating. Instead they decided to dedicate it to idols and demons instead of the one true God.

[ProfessorDavey]

Only according to the Gregorian calendar.

Which is de facto international standard. And although there are some countries that don't use it as standard all those countries that celebrate on the 7th Jan use the Gregorian calendar, as do those who celebrate on the 25th Dec.

So you accept that some Christians celebrate Christmas one one day and others celebrate nearly 2 weeks later.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

Ah yes but!! my point is, actually I think it is two points, Christians do own Christmas, Christ's Mass, and non Christians are not in fact celebrating Christmas, Christ's Mass.

You know, personally I would be happy with non Christians just raising a glass and saying, happy birthday big man thanks for the day off, although I will be working, hell it's treble time yes, yes!! I know, straight to hell Gonnagle, although I will be collecting £200

Gonnagle.

[ad_orientem]

Which is de facto international standard. And although there are some countries that don't use it as standard all those countries that celebrate on the 7th Jan use the Gregorian calendar, as do those who celebrate on the 25th Dec.

So you accept that some Christians celebrate Christmas one one day and others celebrate nearly 2 weeks later.

You're confusing the secular calendar with the liturgical calendar. All Christians, according to their liturgical calendars, celebrate the Nativity on the 25th of December.

[ProfessorDavey]

You're confusing the secular calendar with the liturgical calendar. All Christians, according to their liturgical calendars, celebrate the Nativity on the 25th of December.

Then they don't agree on their calendar.

I ask again (and will rephrase just to make sure there is absolute clarity) - do you accept that there will be some Christians celebrating Christmas in 29 days time and others who will celebrate it nearly 2 weeks later.

[Outrider]

Dear Samuel,

Help me out here, where am I going wrong in my thinking.

Christmas, Christ's Mass, Mass, The Eucharist, atheists are celebrating this?

Gonnagle.

No, we're celebrating a culturally traditionally midwinter festival of food, gifts, family, music, TV spectaculars and music. Some of that has had religious influences from the past, some people still choose to emphasise those religious elements. One of those religious elements is the name, 'Christmas'.

Whilst it might have had a religious origin as a name, neither the origins of the festival nor the current celebration are intrinsically Christian.

O.

[ad_orientem]

Then they don't agree on their calendar.

I ask again (and will rephrase just to make sure there is absolute clarity) - do you accept that there will be some Christians celebrating Christmas in 29 days time and others who will celebrate it nearly 2 weeks later.

Of course, yet that's not because they disagree on the date but rather the calendar.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Outrider,

No, we're celebrating a culturally traditionally midwinter festival of food, gifts, family, music, TV spectaculars and music.

Fair enough, not Christmas.

Dear Mods,

I think we can shut this thread down now, Christians 2 non Christians 0.

Gonnagle it is not a competition, like hell it's not

Gonnagle.

[ad_orientem]

This is actually a misnomer, a_o, and will, to an extent, depend on which calender one is working on.  Some Orthodox believers celebrate early in what we would call January.  Whilst we were working in nepal, the Nepalese church was seriously considering moving Christmas to the end of October/early November, so as to coincide with what is the main Nepalese cultural festival.
Except, of course, for those passages that suggest that it occurred at a different time of year.  And therein lies the problem: there is no Biblical passage that provides a definitive timing of the event.  However, extra-Biblical records - such the Roman records concerning the census and scientific records concerning the comet that is likely the 'star' - place the event sometime in early to mid-autumn - late September/early October.

As I understand it from what I have read, the celebration of Jesus' birth didn't become common until the 3rd or 4th century AD, and most saints' days became popular in the 4th or 5th, so dating Christmas by referring to a saint's day is the wrong way round.

Actually Tertullian or Irenaeus (I can't remember which one) gives us a clue regarding the date for the Nativity, that being the Feast of the Annunciation (one of the oldest feasts in the liturgical calendar) which falls on the 25th of March, it being believed that our Mord died on the cross on the same day of the year he was conceived.

[ProfessorDavey]

"Both the scriptures and creation mystically point to midwinter. We know that St. John the Baptist was born six months before our Lord and in the Gospel he says of Christ "He must increase, but I must decrease". Creation also testifies to this, for the Church celebrates the Nativity of St. John the Baptist on midsummer after which the Sun decreases, and the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ on midwinter after which the Sun increases. Both the liturgical calendar and the cosmos are in harmony and of that we should not be surprised for creation speaks of him through whom all things were made."

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=9512.msg563030#msg563030

This is the most non-sense bit of circular arguing I have heard in a long time. And you should perhaps take this up with your co-religionists Hope and BA who also think you are talking rubbish.

But to nail your points.

1. Is there any credible historical evidence that John the baptist was born on 25th June (or thereabouts) - No.

2. Is there any credible historical evidence that Jesus was born on 25th Dec (or thereabouts) - No.

3. Is there any credible historical evidence that John the baptist was born 6 months before Jesus - well not sure if it is credible, but yes. In Luke 1 where it is suggested that Mary became pregnant when Elizabeth was already 6 months pregnant. But that's it.

[ad_orientem]

Why would I care what Hope and BS...sorry, I meant BA, think? What I care about is holding fast to those things we have received from the Apostles (2 Thessalonians 2:14; Jude 1:3).

[ProfessorDavey]

Why would I care what Hope and BS...sorry, I meant BA, think? What I care about is holding fast to those things we have received from the Apostles (2 Thessalonians 2:14; Jude 1:3).

And what do those tow verses tell us about the birth dates of either Jesus or John?

Oh yes, exactly nothing.

[DaveM]

But to nail your points.

1. Is there any credible historical evidence that John the baptist was born on 25th June (or thereabouts) - No.

2. Is there any credible historical evidence that Jesus was born on 25th Dec (or thereabouts) - No.

3. Is there any credible historical evidence that John the baptist was born 6 months before Jesus - well not sure if it is credible, but yes. In Luke 1 where it is suggested that Mary became pregnant when Elizabeth was already 6 months pregnant. But that's it.

For what it is worth I think a reasonably convincing argument can be made from Scripture that the birth of Jesus was probably late September or early October in the year 5BC, with John the Baptist's birth being perhaps mid-April of that year  In addition to the Luke 1:26 passage mentioned in Point 3 above it also necessary to appeal to a few other NT passages and one critical passage in the OT in reaching this conclusion.

Jesus would then have commenced His ministry at the age of thirty, immediately following His baptism by John, in late Sept to early Oct AD 26.  The crucifixion at Passover would have been in early April AD 30, following a ministry of exactly three and a half years.

But then I accept the Scriptures as credible evidence!  So at this point probably best to agree to disagree.

[ad_orientem]

I'm saying that the faith the Church has received from the Apostles is much more important to me than the opinions of two of our posters.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm saying that the faith the Church has received from the Apostles is much more important to me than the opinions of two of our posters.

But we are talking about the date of birth of Jesus and John and as we've seen there is absolutely nothing within the bible to support your view that Jesus was born on 25th Dec and John on 25th June - absolutely nothing whatsoever, zilch, zip, nada

[ad_orientem]

I would say, as I have already argued, that the scriptures do point to mid-winter. I hope you also realise that being an Orthodox Christian I do not hold to sola scriptura but that the ancient liturgies of the Church are essentially as authorative as the scriptures for both belong to the same tradition.

[floo]

I would say, as I have already argued, that the scriptures do point to mid-winter. I hope you also realise that being an Orthodox Christian I do not hold to sola scriptura but that the ancient liturgies of the Church are essentially as authorative as the scriptures for both belong to the same tradition.

Where do they point to mid winter?

[ProfessorDavey]

I would say, as I have already argued, that the scriptures do point to mid-winter.

No they don't - as I made clear earlier (and others including other christians agree) there is nothing in the scripture that pin-points the birth of Jesus to late Dec or John to late June, although there is some scant information that suggests they were born 6 months apart.

I hope you also realise that being an Orthodox Christian I do not hold to sola scriptura but that the ancient liturgies of the Church are essentially as authorative as the scriptures for both belong to the same tradition.

You can hold to whatever you like, but I'm asking for evidence - and there is no credible evidence to back up your assertion.

[ProfessorDavey]

For what it is worth I think a reasonably convincing argument can be made from Scripture that the birth of Jesus was probably late September or early October in the year 5BC, with John the Baptist's birth being perhaps mid-April of that year  In addition to the Luke 1:26 passage mentioned in Point 3 above it also necessary to appeal to a few other NT passages and one critical passage in the OT in reaching this conclusion.

Jesus would then have commenced His ministry at the age of thirty, immediately following His baptism by John, in late Sept to early Oct AD 26.  The crucifixion at Passover would have been in early April AD 30, following a ministry of exactly three and a half years.

But then I accept the Scriptures as credible evidence!  So at this point probably best to agree to disagree.

I don't thick we are disagreeing, as what you have said is entirely consistent with my points that:

1. Is there any credible historical evidence that John the baptist was born on 25th June (or thereabouts) - No.

2. Is there any credible historical evidence that Jesus was born on 25th Dec (or thereabouts) - No.