Author Topic: Have things got better  (Read 12427 times)

Outrider

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2015, 05:23:53 PM »
The point I am making is that things certainly are better, especially if you live in the affluent West.  But they are not better if you live in Africa, parts of Asia, and even in the affluent West.  They are not a whole lot better if you live in Syria, and the like!  So, things are better, for some;  but you cannot say they are better, full stop:  there are millions who are not better.

And the point we are making is that the evidence overwhelmingly says that you are better off if you're in Africa than you would have been. You aren't as well off as you would be if you were in Europe, but that doesn't mean that you aren't better off.

O.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2015, 05:24:37 PM »
BA,

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You just don't get it, do you?

Actually he does, better than you do in fact.

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Whatever is improving, it is not correct to say, in a sweeping generalisation, we are better of now.

Yes it is - collectively "we" are "better off". You're approach is a bit like being told that recovery rates from leukaemia have improved hugely, and replying, "but my friend Fred just died of it so you must be wrong". 
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2015, 05:25:48 PM »
And the point we are making is that the evidence overwhelmingly says that you are better off if you're in Africa than you would have been. You aren't as well off as you would be if you were in Europe, but that doesn't mean that you aren't better off.

O....

How can starvation, by the million, be considered as being better off!  I'm astounded by such complacent thinking!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 12:31:16 AM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2015, 05:32:57 PM »
BA,

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How can starvation, by the million, be considered as being better off!  I'm astounded by such complacent thinking!

If, say, 100 years ago 10% of the population died of starvation and now 1% of the population dies of starvation then collectively the population is "better off".

No-one is suggesting that the position of the 1% isn't awful, nor that we shouldn't aim to make it 0%. The fact remans though that collective "better off-ness" is demonstrably a fact. 
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2015, 05:48:33 PM »
BA,

If, say, 100 years ago 10% of the population died of starvation and now 1% of the population dies of starvation then collectively the population is "better off".

No-one is suggesting that the position of the 1% isn't awful, nor that we shouldn't aim to make it 0%. The fact remans though that collective "better off-ness" is demonstrably a fact.

But collective "better off-ness" is better described as better off-ness for the majority.  You may be a dollar or two better off than years ago,  but that is not stopping you from being really poor, and dying from starvation.  Try telling the starving millions not to moan:  "you're better off these days."
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2015, 06:10:12 PM »
BA,

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But collective "better off-ness" is better described as better off-ness for the majority.  You may be a dollar or two better off than years ago,  but that is not stopping you from being really poor, and dying from starvation.  Try telling the starving millions not to moan:  "you're better off these days."

You're still not getting it. If recovery rates from leukaemia have doubled in the last 20 years but you happen to know three people who have recently died of it does that mean that recovery rates haven't doubled over the last 20 years at all? 

You can point to the comparatively smaller incidences of bad stuff still happening, but that says nothing to the underlying trends. 
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2015, 06:12:10 PM »
BA,

You're still not getting it. If recovery rates from leukaemia have doubled in the last 20 years but you happen to know three people who have recently died of it does that mean that recovery rates haven't doubled over the last 20 years at all? 

You can point to the comparatively smaller incidences of bad stuff still happening, but that says nothing to the underlying trends.

It's not much comfort to those in distress and dying  -  and I repeat, we are talking in many million  -  to learn that others are doing well and are better off.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Bubbles

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2015, 06:43:11 PM »
I'm better off than my Grandmother, I have more free time and money.

She used to walk miles everyday just to get the milk and she had to hand wash clothes for a big family, who worked on the land.

She used candles as they had no electricity and the toilet was outside.




Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2015, 06:55:30 PM »
Acquisitive materialists and indeed as this thread shows philosophical materialists see improvement in material terms.

It seems in a secular humanist society we must celebrate improvements and shut up about the shortcomings.

One recent metric was how happy young people are....not very by the results....they are certainly not as well of as people on this board who were the generation that did get what they wanted, free education, Dole, Welfare state and have still found time in their dotage to disrespect other people on the grounds of religion, income, disability etc.

so for those who say ''progress'' what they are really saying is ''I'm alright Jack''.

Shaker

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2015, 08:04:10 PM »
Acquisitive materialists and indeed as this thread shows philosophical materialists see improvement in material terms.
When you have an empty belly, cholera and only a hole in the ground to shit in, material terms look pretty attractive, I'd imagine.

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It seems in a secular humanist society we must celebrate improvements and shut up about the shortcomings.
Improvements are always worth celebrating, are they not?

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One recent metric was how happy young people are....not very by the results....they are certainly not as well of as people on this board who were the generation that did get what they wanted, free education, Dole, Welfare state and have still found time in their dotage to disrespect other people on the grounds of religion, income, disability etc.

Who on this forum has disrespected anyone on the grounds of disability? I think we'll need to see some evidence of that.
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Jack Knave

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2015, 08:15:17 PM »
These things are relative because people get use to the ease of their life and take it to be the norm. Only when this norm is violated do they feel that things are getting worse or extreme. It is about expectations.

Outrider

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2015, 08:33:50 PM »
It's not much comfort to those in distress and dying  -  and I repeat, we are talking in many million  -  to learn that others are doing well and are better off.

Absolutely true, it's of little comfort to them, and I'm glad that I'm not in their situation. To fail to appreciate that we've improved things, though, is to risk failing to acknowledge which actions and methods have resulted in the improvements that we have seen, and which changes have risked it or made no difference.

We have made a difference - infrastructure projects, widespread health-care programmes, multi-national oversight programmes in contested areas, organisations like the Red Cross, Oxfam and others... these have made a huge difference.

O.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2015, 12:33:08 AM »
I'm better off than my Grandmother, I have more free time and money.

She used to walk miles everyday just to get the milk and she had to hand wash clothes for a big family, who worked on the land.

She used candles as they had no electricity and the toilet was outside.

Would you consider yourself better off than your Grandmother if, despite your indoor toilet, etc, if your children were starving to death?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 01:22:24 AM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

jeremyp

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2015, 11:00:34 AM »
a child dies every three seconds from disease or malnutrition!
But , if 50 years ago, a child died from disease or malnutrition every two seconds, we'd have to say things are better today.

Fifty years ago, two billion out of three billion lived on the equivalent of less than a dollar a day. Today it is one billion out of seven billion. If we had simply maintained the status quo, the figure would be more than four billion. You'd have to be a moron not to agree that isn't an improvement.

Still sucks to be one of those one billion, of course, but at least we know that, to improve things, we should do more of the same not less of the same.
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Outrider

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2015, 11:01:18 AM »
Would you consider yourself better off than your Grandmother if, despite your indoor toilet, etc, if your children were starving to death?

No. Along with other things that aren't happening...

Do you understand the difference between absolute measurements - some people are still starving - and relative statements - fewer people are starving now than used to be?

O.
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ippy

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2015, 01:04:21 PM »
Isn't life in general so much better now that there are far fewer religious believers about, I'm sure there's a link there, what do you think, B A?

ippy

P S Only life in those countries like the UK where religion seems to be in terminal decline, well everyone wants to get here, look at where the refugees keep telling the reporters they want to go to, all of them are countries with mostly non-religious populations, this has to be telling all of us something.

I thought I aught to add this PS because the original post does look like a bit of a wind up.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2015, 02:02:18 PM »
Isn't life in general so much better now that there are far fewer religious believers about, I'm sure there's a link there, what do you think, B A?

ippy

P S Only life in those countries like the UK where religion seems to be in terminal decline, well everyone wants to get here, look at where the refugees keep telling the reporters they want to go to, all of them are countries with mostly non-religious populations, this has to be telling all of us something.

I thought I aught to add this PS because the original post does look like a bit of a wind up.

Religion has nothing to do with this OP, Ippy  And the OP should have been, more accurately worded as, "Have things got better for all of us;  or just some?"  Sits back and waits for the arguments from those sitting there comfortably  and  with plenty:  things have certainly got better for them  (and I include myself in that;  though I don't think I am as complacent as most of them.)   Finally, to argue that if you earn two dollars now, instead of one, you're better off, is pure derision.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Outrider

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2015, 02:08:05 PM »
Religion has nothing to do with this OP, Ippy  And the OP should have been, more accurately worded as, "Have things got better for all of us;  or just some?"  Sits back and waits for the arguments from those sitting there comfortably  and  with plenty:  things have certainly got better for them  (and I include myself in that;  though I don't think I am as complacent as most of them.)   Finally, to argue that if you earn two dollars now, instead of one, you're better off, is pure derision.

I'd agree that the original discussion wasn't particularly about religion, though it is one of the influencing factors in many, many discussions around quality of life in various places.

I think what you want isn't that rewording of the original question, I think what you want is to say 'Is it enough that things have generally improved?'

I think we'd all agree that whilst there are still people starving, still people dying in childhood from entirely preventable diseases, still people struggling to access clean water, still people condemned to live in oppressive regimes without rights or freedoms then we haven't finished.

That doesn't mean that we can't both celebrate and learn from the very creditable successes that we have had. That fewer people are starving isn't of any comfort to the people that still are, I'm sure, even if they know; it puts a dampener on our sense of achievement, but it doesn't nullify it.

The chances that we will ever have an entirely perfect world are extremely slim, given that there is a range of impressions of what perfection is, but there are some things that we can all presumably agree are bad things, and we have done a lot of good work at reducing the prevalence of those.

O.
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DaveM

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2015, 03:34:26 PM »
There is no doubt that in Africa the number of people living in abject poverty has decreased.  Access to basic health care has improved as have other measures used to assess the quality of life.  Nevertheless, speaking from the perspective of an African born and raised in Africa, I would suggest that the reaction of the great majority of the inhabitants of this continent, when informed that the stats shows significant improvements to quality of life, would be to refer to that Oscar Wilde quote about there being lies, damn lies and statistics.

Bubbles

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2015, 09:50:03 PM »
Would you consider yourself better off than your Grandmother if, despite your indoor toilet, etc, if your children were starving to death?

No but they're not, that's the point.

My children have had far more opportunities than my grandparents had.

Back in those days even the children had to work hard, and there was not a lot of chance of self improvement.

It's more than material things that make it better, it's the wider experience, and ability to try different foods from the other side of the planet and experience " the other" and explore and learn about other spiritual things.

Also the attitudes have changed for the better. ( unmarried mothers, children born outside marriage, divorce, living together etc etc) it's much better now.

Years ago, it wasn't like that  :(

We, in the UK now have much more opportunities to explore and have much more say in what we do, back then you were virtually tied to your employer and could even be sold into service. ( perhaps the class thing was more noticeable in the country)

Back in my grandmothers day, they never had the opportunity to really explore or read about Christian religion, it was something you were expected to do once a week ,to put your best clothes on and attend church on a Sunday and you sat and listened as was expected of you.

If the men had to get the harvest in, the women went on their behalf.

In my grandmothers day, the working classes were nothing......... Except skivvies and underlings etc ( all things bright and beautiful the hymn captures it in the line ......"and ordered their estate"/ social position etc etc you were poor because that's how you were born to be... To serve your betters!)

If you aspired to improve yourself you would have been seen as "getting above your station in life".

I think my grandmothers life was quite hard, full of hard work, and not much in the way of inspiration.

Even reading was difficult in the winter, because by the time you had done a days hard graft, fed your family, cleared up, darned clothes it was too dark to read much by candlelight.

It's no good going on about starving children in Africa or elsewhere because it isn't comparing like with like.

You would need to look at their generations and their grandmothers.

It may well be that their grandmother might have had to drink dirty water from a river, but the current generation might have a well with clean water.

Or that in their grandmothers day there was no oxfam, or Christian aid or water aid or Red Cross or the things they might now have access too.

It might be their grandmothers generation was inflicted with rickets or blindness or even smallpox, help of any sort might not have been possible then, not having the modern ability to raise aid and get it to where it's needed.

It's all relative.

If you compare same with same, I think you would find it has improved, but unfortunately wars and conflicts often destroy progress in many places.

Even looking at my mother through her 20-30s she couldn't buy something  without her husbands permission.

She couldn't have a loan, couldn't be independant and have a mortgage, she had to get a man to approve.

She couldn't even open a bank account without a man saying she was a responsible person.

No one took women seriously, you couldn't start up in business, without a man being in charge.

Yes things have got better!

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 10:19:06 PM by Rose »

Red Giant

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2015, 06:52:03 AM »
I'm very much with JRR Tolkien on this, that if by progress one means the advancement of the machine then we are not better off (except, perhaps, superficially). Humans today are just as capable of the grossest acts of evil than they ever were and the machine merely enables us to do so on a much larger scale.
General standards of personal and social morality have improved immensely.  England in the Middle Ages was a Third World country of the worst kind, with all the nastiness of the nastiest places today.  Greed, dishonesty, every kind of corruption, and casual violence were everyday norms.  And the Roman Church was into every racket that the finest Italian minds could dream up.

Even in my younger days, most people wouldn't have been trusted with a credit card, if they'd been invented.  Not that it would have been safe to use one.  It's amazing who we trust nowadays.

Even the megalomaniacs tend to be misguided rather than bloodthirsty now.  They get fixated on what they believe to be the greater good.

ad_orientem

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2015, 11:35:42 AM »
The war machine is more effecient than ever and what about the mass killing of the unborn in the womb?
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2015, 11:37:41 AM »
The war machine is more effecient than ever and what about the mass killing of the unborn in the womb?

Yes - you would have thought God would have arranged things more efficiently than having all these miscarriages.
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Shaker

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2015, 11:37:50 AM »
That's called a woman's control over her own body and reproductive chouces, one of the hallmarks of any decent, civilised society.
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floo

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Re: Have things got better
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2015, 11:40:41 AM »
That's called a woman's control over her own body and reproductive chouces, one of the hallmarks of any decent, civilised society.

I agree. At least these days terminations of pregnancy are carried out in a civilised manner, rather than using a backstreet abortionist and a knitting needle as in the past!