Feminism wrong about men?

[Bubbles]

I saw this article and thought how much I agree with it.

Today's feminism teaches women to see themselves as victims and men as perverts, bullies and misogynists, says Natasha Devon


At the end of the session, one of the Society's senior members said: "It's great that you don't think there's any misogyny in your world, but I think if you talked to these men for long enough you'd find there were some pretty sinister ideas about women buried somewhere beneath the surface."
In that moment, I suddenly realised why so many aspects of the modern feminist movement in Britain irritate me so much. Don't misunderstand, I'd consider myself a feminist and I'm all for structural changes which ensure equal treatment of the sexes - the types that are working to ensure we have an equal number of female MPs and laws to prevent female genital mutilation, for example. But cultural "feminist" changes, the types that insist lads mags, Page 3 and wolf-whistling are automatically offensive and should therefore be scrapped from the public consciousness, I have always struggled to comprehend. For, at their crux is the notion that men are either genetically or socially conditioned to be evil. This explains why relatively harmless acts - an admiring glance, a whistle, a propensity for lads mags - are imbued with such weighty significance, often lazily labelled as "rapey".

Today's feminism teaches British women to see themselves as victims and victims cannot exist without a villain, in this instance – men. In order for this thesis to have any kind of logic, feminists have made sweeping, inaccurate judgments about an entire demographic, based on nothing more than their gender. Ironically, the exact practice they claim to be fighting.
Gender equality requires co-operation on all sides. As a humanist, I'd like to see today's feminists give men a bit more credit - they might just be surprised.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/10831043/Modern-feminism-has-got-it-wrong-about-men.html

I've taken bits from it ( so you may want to read the whole thing for context) , but basically I think she is right.

What do you think?

[floo]

I saw this article and thought how much I agree with it.

I've taken bits from it ( so you may want to read the whole thing for context) , but basically I think she is right.

What do you think?

If women are treated inappropriately by men and seen as a sexual target, like those who wolf whistle for instance that is WRONG, imo!

[Rhiannon]

Actually in my experience modern feminism is about refusing to be a victim.

[Sriram]

The problem is that male sex behavior is usually linked to some level of aggression and dominance due to the testosterone levels. Therefore, a certain level of dominance and control over the female is a part of the sexual drive.

Once we try to separate the two and expect the male to shed his dominance, his sex drive and thereby his fertility also could  get affected.  This could be one of the reasons for decreasing fertility in counties with relatively more feminism.....and more fertility in countries with relatively more male dominance. 

Just a thought.

[Outrider]

The problem is that male sex behavior is usually linked to some level of aggression and dominance due to the testosterone levels. Therefore, a certain level of dominance and control over the female is a part of the sexual drive.

Men competing for harem of women is also a facet of that 'testosterone explains everything' mentality, but as a species we moved beyond that when we started talking.

The biological tendency to try to dominate is present in both genders, and isn't strongly linked to testosterone (although physical aggression is).

Once we try to separate the two and expect the male to shed his dominance, his sex drive and thereby his fertility also could  get affected.  This could be one of the reasons for decreasing fertility in counties with relatively more feminism.....and more fertility in countries with relatively more male dominance.

Firstly, lower incidences of childbirth are not, necessarily, an indicator of a decrease in fertility so much as a control of fertility. Secondly, given that we could do with cooling the rate at which the population is increasing, fewer children would be a good thing.

Thirdly, and most importantly, given that we have overcome so many other limitations of our biology, why should we just 'roll over' and accept this one?

As to the original, I can see arguments on both sides. The women I know that appreciate an appreciative look or comment find that what they object is when a reciprocal attitude sees them accused of being a slut, or 'in your face'. It's not the overt sexualisation itself, it's that it happens in an atmosphere where they're not supposed to join in.

By contrast, there are women who dress attractively - deliberately - but then seem to get upset because people have reacted to that: that's an attitude I can't understand. I can understand wanting to feel attractive for your own benefit, but I don't see how you can then object to people noticing it.

Unfortunately, having spent time around a number of men, I'd have to agree that there are some fundamentally disturbing underlying ideas that are extremely widespread amongst them: the disparity of expectations on sexual experience is still the most telling, for me, where it's a badge of achievement for a man to have had many sexual partners, each one being a 'trophy' of some sort, whilst it's an abomination for a woman to do so.

O.

[Rhiannon]

I think that the expectations around the number of sexual partners men and women 'should' have still revolves around the notion of ownership.

When it comes to how women dress, many men seem to be ignorant of the fact that women often set out not to impress them, but other women.

[King Oberon]

Rhi I usually agree with most of your posts to a certain degree but both sexes whether consciously or sub-consciously dress to impress the opposite sex.. unless your gay of course 

Even a 50 year old like myself in a long (long) term relationship still doesn't want to look like a bag of totties to anyone but probably particularly the opposite sex.

[jeremyp]

Actually in my experience modern feminism is about refusing to be a victim.

Which implies that the default position before they came along is that women were (or still are) perpetual victims (of men).

[Rhiannon]

Rhi I usually agree with most of your posts to a certain degree but both sexes whether consciously or sub-consciously dress to impress the opposite sex.. unless your gay of course 

Even a 50 year old like myself in a long (long) term relationship still doesn't want to look like a bag of totties to anyone but probably particularly the opposite sex.

Trust me on this. There's a huge amount of competition among women to be thin, young and fashionable, and most of the time blokes are completely oblivious to it.

[Rhiannon]

Which implies that the default position before they came along is that women were (or still are) perpetual victims (of men).

I think it is more a refusal to be victims to expectations and culture, as per my last point. The idea that women should see men as 'villains' is one I find baffling.

[Outrider]

Rhi I usually agree with most of your posts to a certain degree but both sexes whether consciously or sub-consciously dress to impress the opposite sex.. unless your gay of course 

I've spoken with enough women to know that they are of the opinion it doesn't take much to impress most men, but they have their own pecking order and they are more than happy to critique whomever happens not to be there at the time.

I don't pretend to know why that is, but it's a consistent enough admission/description that I'm more than happy to accept their word that it's a reality.

O.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Modern feminism seems to be to be about whining (a la Laura Bates) rather than being confrontational (a la Germaine Greer).

[Shaker]

Modern feminism seems to be to be about whining (a la Laura Bates) rather than being confrontational (a la Germaine Greer).

Ideally it would be about neither.

[ad_orientem]

I think in the beginning feminsm really was just about equality of opportunity but since the sixties it then began to consider men as the enemy, even to the extent that the most radical think all men are essentially rapists. I also think there has been an attempt in the last few decades to make men effeminate.

[BashfulAnthony]

I went to a feminist picnic earlier this year:  it was good, except nobody made any sandwiches.

[Samuel]

I can see both sides of it too. I would say it is unquestionable that women still have to suffer various inequalities and are still more likely to be victims of sexual crime than men and that these matters need to be addressed urgently.

But, on the other hand, there can be a tendency amongst some feminists to generalise about men in an unhelpful way. The classic one for me is the idea that teenage boys have to be taught that 'no means no'. Ok, its important to raise awareness of rape but that attitude works from the assumption that all boys are rapists-in-waiting. Ultimately its just confrontational. More us and them. I prefer the feminism that says, hey, lets work together on these issues.

Oh, and I have come across plenty of male feminists who are guilty of the same sorts of things, so its not just women who are doing it.

the one that really irks me, and I have come across this A LOT, is the response to men who say 'but I'm a nice guy' that goes 'you don't get a meddle for being a decent human being, now shut up! We're talking about FEMINISM!'. Its a missed opportunity to say "great! come and help us out because there are plenty of shit heads left in the world"

[Outrider]

Modern feminism seems to be to be about whining (a la Laura Bates) rather than being confrontational (a la Germaine Greer).

I think it's seen to be whining because a lot of it focusses around complaints. Complaints like:

In 78% of forced marriages in the UK the forced partner is the wife.
The full-time gender pay gap is around 10-13%. Part time it's 35%.
Women make up 17% of board directors in FTSE 100 companies, but 70% of minimum wage employees.
75% of parents with primary responsibility for children are women
Only 1 in 4 MPs is a woman. 35% of senior civil servants. 1 in 6 cabinet posts. 35% of local councillors and 13% of council leaders.
23% of national newspaper reporters are women. A quarter of those are specifically limited to 'womens' issues.
Media 'experts' are 4 times more likely to be male than female.
31% of speaking characters in film are women. Only 30% of characters of any sort are women.
9% of film writers and 15% of directors are women.
22% of police officers are women, and only 11% of senior police officers
Despite outperforming males at GCSE and A-Level science, girls are less likely to take scientific subjects at university; only 40% of medical doctors are female, but over 80% of nurses

There are, of course, any number of complex reasons for many of these, and some of them are rightly pitched at least partly as 'choices', but there are cultural influences and expectations levering those chances which also need to be addressed.

O.

[Outrider]

I think in the beginning feminsm really was just about equality of opportunity but since the sixties it then began to consider men as the enemy, even to the extent that the most radical think all men are essentially rapists. I also think there has been an attempt in the last few decades to make men effeminate.

Feminism still is about equality of opportunity.

Yes, there are some radicals who go beyond that to anti-man sentiment, but then there are men (and, in my subjective opinion more of these men than there are anti-men women) who think that women are there to look attractive, spawn children and bring beer and sex organs on demand.

Both of those groups are small enough that they aren't a significant factor in the debate - the problem is the large cluster of mostly men, but some women, who think that equality has been somehow achieved.

O.

[Sriram]

Thirdly, and most importantly, given that we have overcome so many other limitations of our biology, why should we just 'roll over' and accept this one?

O.

If as atheists believe, we are only biology, how can 'we' overcome our biology? What do you mean by 'we'? 

[Outrider]

But, on the other hand, there can be a tendency amongst some feminists to generalise about men in an unhelpful way. The classic one for me is the idea that teenage boys have to be taught that 'no means no'.

The lesson that's actually being taught is the lack of a clear 'yes' means 'no'. The lesson that still needs to be put out and clearly understood is that there is no situation where what a woman is wearing justifies raping her, no situation where how many sexual partners a woman has previously had justifies raping her, and no situation in which where a woman happens to be at a particular time justifies raping her. That canard still plays constantly in trials: Why was she there? Why was she wearing something that provocative? Why was she out at 2am? Why had she had 3 boyfriends in the previous 3 months?

Ok, its important to raise awareness of rape but that attitude works from the assumption that all boys are rapists-in-waiting.

There is clear evidence that people - in general, not specifically boys - have a lack of clarity of exactly what constitutes consent. I have only one real issue with the current direction of legal and educational efforts; I fail to understand how someone can be considered too drunk to have given informed consent, but someone can't be considered too drunk to have not recognised that.

Ultimately its just confrontational. More us and them. I prefer the feminism that says, hey, lets work together on these issues.

And the majority do - there are any number of pieces out there pointing out that what women really need is more people, men and women, to stand up and say that they are feminists. Instead what happens is that - for all sorts of reasons, many of which are to do with our sensationalist media outlets - the radical fringe and 'outraged of Runcorn' are the voices that get airtime and the rational middle disappears.

O.

[Outrider]

If as atheists believe, we are only biology, how can 'we' overcome our biology?

Medicine would seem to be the most obvious.

What do you mean by 'we'?

Society at large, the legal and cultural framework in which this all happens.

Two examples, one general and one specific.

Parental leave, as of this year, can be shared, which is an advance in itself. However, as a mother you can take your leave in whatever format you like up to the allotment, in the qualifying period. As a partner, you can legally be limited to booking your allotment in a maximum of three blocks. This serves to make it easier for women to arrange their leave around childbirth, encouraging partners (typically men) to stay in work and putting the burden of primary carer firmly on the women.

Most couples, given the demands of nursing, would probably opt for the mother taking the bulk of the leave anyway, and the system works well for women going straight back to work and men staying at home, but for couples who wish to share the burden it's made difficult: for instance, you can't without a consenting employer as a partner take your time as 2 days a week, but as a mother you can.

Our specific case: our daughter is profoundly autistic. She is in a good school which caters for her needs extremely well. My wife also works in a (mainstream) school, whilst I work in the private sector. My work demands are much more flexible, which means we always put my name and my number down a the primary contact. Whenever something happens at school or on the transport to and from the school, my wife is always called first, because culturally the assumption is made that she'd come running because she's the mother.

She cares, and when she's called she does come; but I care, and when I'm called I come, too, and me coming disrupts our lives much less, but that isn't considered because - as I was expressly told - 'children need their mothers at a time like that'.

O.

[Rhiannon]

I agree very much with O's post in #19. And a recent report on the BBC showed that in a consent lesson looking at a fictional scenario teenage girls judged the rape victim more harshly than the boys did. Girls need educating just as much, that nothing they do makes them culpable if they are raped.

[Samuel]

Whenever something happens at school or on the transport to and from the school, my wife is always called first, because culturally the assumption is made that she'd come running because she's the mother.

This, to me, is actually one of the more troublesome blockages. I feel there is a lot of energy expended in breaking down cultural walls for women and girls, which is fantastic, but there is a risk of creating an unsustainable one-way flow. Basically 'lets all be blokes!'.

It is still, broadly speaking, less acceptable for a man to take on traditionally feminine rolls than it is for women to take on traditionally male roles. I have a son and daughter and that's where I notice it the most. As for myself I am more sensitive to those occasions where certain expectations are made of me based on my sex. Its small beer in comparison to what women have to endure but it all needs to change.

The fact of the matter is though that I am more sensitive to these things BECAUSE I am a feminist. That is why ultimately, feminism can only be a good thing.

p.s. ref the bit about 'no means no' - I wasn't referring to formal education, simply an attitude I have encountered in informal settings. I totally agree that consent is something that needs to be discussed in schools as part of a comprehensive sex ed programme.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I think it's seen to be whining because a lot of it focusses around complaints. Complaints like:

In 78% of forced marriages in the UK the forced partner is the wife.
The full-time gender pay gap is around 10-13%. Part time it's 35%.
Women make up 17% of board directors in FTSE 100 companies, but 70% of minimum wage employees.
75% of parents with primary responsibility for children are women
Only 1 in 4 MPs is a woman. 35% of senior civil servants. 1 in 6 cabinet posts. 35% of local councillors and 13% of council leaders.
23% of national newspaper reporters are women. A quarter of those are specifically limited to 'womens' issues.
Media 'experts' are 4 times more likely to be male than female.
31% of speaking characters in film are women. Only 30% of characters of any sort are women.
9% of film writers and 15% of directors are women.
22% of police officers are women, and only 11% of senior police officers
Despite outperforming males at GCSE and A-Level science, girls are less likely to take scientific subjects at university; only 40% of medical doctors are female, but over 80% of nurses

There are, of course, any number of complex reasons for many of these, and some of them are rightly pitched at least partly as 'choices', but there are cultural influences and expectations levering those chances which also need to be addressed.

O.

OK

1. Forced marriages is a cultural thing, it does not apply across the board.

2. In a working career which I regret to say has lasted almost forty years, I have never worked anywhere where women were paid less than men simply because they were women. Never.

3. I cannot get too upset about a handful of rich women who want to leapfrog a slightly larger handful of rich men onto a FTSE 100 board. I care rather more about receptionists, security guards, cleaners, administrators, etc, and whether they have enough money to live on.

4. Almost 100 % of those people who give birth are women. Some things you just have to get on with. If one partner has responsibility for the child, it means the other one has to do more work outside the home.

5. I don't care about politicians any more than I care about FTSE 100 boards. I don't think many others do either. One could equally argue that Lay Magistrates have the greater impact on more peoples lives than the senior judiciary, and a majority of the former are women. That ain't doing too much for those women who appear before them charged with theft because they had to steal to feed their families.

6. I sometimes read the Daily Wail, it's a guilty pleasure of mine. But I don't blame the offspring bearing gender for writing "Kylie Krudder shows daring side boob" stuff, if it sells, so be it.

7 So "boys" films involving violence & explosions don't have that many female characters. Most of the characters in such films get killed, you could argue that it is discrimination to imply that the death of a male character means less than the death of a female character.

8. I think that is what is usually termed "A First World problem".

9. If women don't want to join the police in huge numbers, that is their choice.

10. So not everybody wants to do science? Not all women want to work in HR either, but nobody grumbles about the lack of men in such posts. A 3:2 ratio for doctors does not strike me as being unduly lopsided. As for nurses, have you ever met a male dental hygienist?

The most absurd thing about current feminism is that it calls for abortion on demand as a woman's right to do what she wants with her body, yet it calls for prostitution to be outlawed.

[Rhiannon]

But Humph, it isn't just about what bothers you personally or not.