Author Topic: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria  (Read 48314 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #250 on: December 02, 2015, 05:49:52 PM »
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I was wondering how many proxy forces there are intervening now in Syria - US, Russia, Iran, Turkey, Germany, Saudis, France, UK,  poor buggers, the Syrians I mean.

Angus Robertson listed them in his speech. In addition to those certainly Australia, Bahrain, and Canada.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #251 on: December 02, 2015, 05:50:54 PM »
They are deluded if so, every terrorist attack sparks a stupid knee jerk reaction from the West.

I suspect they do it because it plays into the narrative of West against Islam, doesn't help much there is also a nasty right wing element in the West which will gain power with every successful terrorist attack.
Short term there will be air strikes to be seen to be doing something or revenge, but as in Afghanistan, it is difficult to hold territory or maintain rule of law without ground troops and a political solution, and in the long-term there will be a reduction in foreign ground troops.

ISIS are probably gambling on being able to put out images of dead civilians from air strikes on the internet to play into the anti-Islam narrative and inspire and radicalise some disaffected violent young men to carry out some kind of terrorist attack. Even ISIS's claim of  terrorist attacks against Russian civilians doesn't prevent Russia from attacking those who oppose Assad, even if they also oppose ISIS. So ISIS will find room to manoeuvre amongst the political in-fighting and they have some powerful allies.

I think ISIS would welcome a rise in the right-wing elements in British society - apart from enjoying the conflict in liberal societies, people being nice to Muslims would actually worry ISIS more as it disrupts their anti-Islam narrative. So even if mainstream Muslim voices condemning ISIS ideology are getting more media publicity the moderates will find it hard to counter the frustrations of disaffected young people experiencing right-wing anti-Muslim prejudice who are drawn to the ISIS call to fight back by taking part in the "glorious" battle by any means necessary .
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #252 on: December 02, 2015, 06:06:13 PM »
I think there is also a strange acceptance of the wanking death cult's claims to coherence. They have created a narrative where even where there are acts of cowardly murder carried out by groups they hate, they can tie it all in to them. It's like the Judean People's Front, get credit for the People's Front of Judea and the Popular Front of Judea.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #253 on: December 02, 2015, 06:08:17 PM »
And possibly worse some of the 70,000 that Cameron talked of comprise of the Popular People's Front of Judea, and the People's Front of Judea etc etc

Spud

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #254 on: December 02, 2015, 06:19:20 PM »
All this 'we need to keep Iraq as we left' smacks of neo-colonialism to me.  No wonder the West is hated by so many people in the region, we are still acting as if it was the 19th century.  Order a gun-boat to Tripoli, my lord, the niggers are being restless.
We invaded Iraq in error, then attempted to right that wrong. Get with the program.

jakswan

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #255 on: December 02, 2015, 06:20:42 PM »
www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/isis-releases-video-purportedly-showing-beheading-alleged-russian-spy-n472921

I wonder why ISIS are picking a fight with Russia, they will less concerned with collateral damage and this plays into the narrative?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #256 on: December 02, 2015, 06:22:48 PM »
We invaded Iraq in error, then attempted to right that wrong. Get with the program.

What program? Do you actually mean that or are you entering for POE of the Month? Which time did we leave Iraq in a state you want to keep it in?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #257 on: December 02, 2015, 06:26:04 PM »
www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/isis-releases-video-purportedly-showing-beheading-alleged-russian-spy-n472921

I wonder why ISIS are picking a fight with Russia, they will less concerned with collateral damage and this plays into the narrative?
because Russia back Assad, a murderous thug that used to be ours and is a symbol of the secular Western approach to controlling the Middle East. If you attack Russia you are attacking a regime that all of Cameron's 'bogus battalions' of 70,000 are already fighting.

Jack Knave

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #258 on: December 02, 2015, 06:28:39 PM »
I can't think of a better reason to send armed people in with a mandate to shoot than if we don't more people will end up dead, or worse.
So you think we should be the world's police? What mandate do we have to go invading countries just because we don't like the fact that they don't adhere to what we see as being correct?


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One of them, yes. The other being that the majority of the people in the region weren't on one side or the other of the conflict, but were rather caught in the middle.
That tends to be the case most of the time. It is an aggressive idealistic few with greedy motives that force the rest into their madness.

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There are a range of Muslim views, and in the west the vast majority are being ignored whilst they continually protest what is being done, as they see it, in Islam's name. The problem isn't the majority of Muslims, it's the fact that the influential Muslims - the Saudi royals, the Iranian elite and the like - are sitting on the fence. They don't want to aggravate their markets in the West, they don't want to aggravate potentially violent terrorist groups, so they pretend like it's not their issue whilst funneling cash into the region to support one ragtag bunch of nutjobs or another.
My response was about what is needed back home, which was I thought your comment was about. You mentioned educating those who may have jihadist attitudes but education to me implies talking at people as oppose to talking with them. If the Muslim community is outraged by all this then I would expect them to be proactive but I can't say I've seen much proof for this. Neither can I see much proof for our government really trying to fully understand what is going on; understanding how British Muslim's feel and think etc. Instead they seem to just gather in their Westminster bubble and come up with schemes for the Muslim community to take on board. Whether here or in Syria our government is way behind the curve and I see much of what Cameron does or want to do as too-late-knee-jerk-reactions.

Spud

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #259 on: December 02, 2015, 06:29:33 PM »
Leaving Russia and Assad in charge could result in a bloodbath. I honestly don't know I know that sounds flaky but there isn't an easy option. I don't trust Cameron and I don't have much faith in Corbyn.
Saying we want Assad gone is about as much good as saying we want Putin to step down.

Spud

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #260 on: December 02, 2015, 06:32:28 PM »
What program? Do you actually mean that or are you entering for POE of the Month? Which time did we leave Iraq in a state you want to keep it in?
When we withdrew our forces .

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #261 on: December 02, 2015, 06:35:22 PM »
When we withdrew our forces .

So when it was still effectively in a form of civil war, with ongoing bombings and allowed Da'esh etc to emerge. Sounds brilliant idea.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #262 on: December 02, 2015, 06:40:27 PM »
Leaving Russia and Assad in charge could result in a bloodbath. I honestly don't know I know that sounds flaky but there isn't an easy option. I don't trust Cameron and I don't have much faith in Corbyn.

Leaving Assad and Russia in charge is by far the best option. Russia was right all along. Of course the Americans don't like it, especially since it's becoming clear that the CIA and Mossad backed ISIS.
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Spud

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #263 on: December 02, 2015, 06:42:07 PM »
So when it was still effectively in a form of civil war, with ongoing bombings and allowed Da'esh etc to emerge. Sounds brilliant idea.
Go back to the point I was addressing you're way off track

Jack Knave

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #264 on: December 02, 2015, 06:43:45 PM »
If he's such a dinosaur why did he trounce his fellow candidates in the leadership election with such a thumping majority and why have upwards of 50,000 people joined Labour in the couple of months since he won?
Considering the number of voters in the UK that isn't a great deal, and no doubt represents the extreme Lefties in the country. He won because many in the Labour party and those that joined for £3 (a policy that opened the door to such abuse) were also extreme Lefties. Given that he only got nominated because of the stupid Labour/Leftie attitude of naively helping the underdog with no sensibility of the dangers involved the Labour party were destined to fall foul of their myopic whinging.

wigginhall

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #265 on: December 02, 2015, 06:44:21 PM »
So when it was still effectively in a form of civil war, with ongoing bombings and allowed Da'esh etc to emerge. Sounds brilliant idea.

The politics in Iraq is mind-boggling.  Al Qaeda were actually defeated, partly by the Sunni tribes, and then everything went pear-shaped, and IS emerged.  Of course, Syria is much more straight-forward (not).  Intervening there should be a doddle.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #266 on: December 02, 2015, 06:47:35 PM »
I think there is also a strange acceptance of the wanking death cult's claims to coherence. They have created a narrative where even where there are acts of cowardly murder carried out by groups they hate, they can tie it all in to them. It's like the Judean People's Front, get credit for the People's Front of Judea and the Popular Front of Judea.
Agreed. I have no idea which group actually carried out various terrorist attacks and beheadings and explosions or whether they are united under an actual leadership or whether they just come together for photo-calls and videos to post on YouTube for propaganda purposes.
Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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wigginhall

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #267 on: December 02, 2015, 06:48:17 PM »
Leaving Assad and Russia in charge is by far the best option. Russia was right all along. Of course the Americans don't like it, especially since it's becoming clear that the CIA and Mossad backed ISIS.

If the West backs Assad, I would predict a Sunni uprising which would make IS look like a tea-party, spreading right across the Sunni arc, Iraq, Syria, Turkey.  I suppose genocide might work.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #268 on: December 02, 2015, 06:52:26 PM »
Agreed. I have no idea which group actually carried out various terrorist attacks and beheadings and explosions or whether they are united under an actual leadership or whether they just come together for photo-calls and videos to post on YouTube for propaganda purposes.

The whole concept that various points that people argued that Raqqa is a command and control centre seems to ignore their other position that this is some new form of entity we are dealing with.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #269 on: December 02, 2015, 06:53:54 PM »
The politics in Iraq is mind-boggling.  Al Qaeda were actually defeated, partly by the Sunni tribes, and then everything went pear-shaped, and IS emerged.  Of course, Syria is much more straight-forward (not).  Intervening there should be a doddle.

And when we initially intervened there was no Al Qaeda there

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #270 on: December 02, 2015, 06:55:41 PM »
Go back to the point I was addressing you're way off track

In what way? We left Iraq as a civil war. You stated you wanted to keep it like that.

Jack Knave

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #271 on: December 02, 2015, 06:58:17 PM »
There is a view that there exists many in the UK that are as far left as Corbyn. How many though?

If the Oldham seat goes you should have a clearer indication.
The majority at the 2015 election was 14,000. It is unlikely to be totally out done, so the real question is how much will Corbyn lose from that majority. If it is substantial then expect real pressure from the moderates to try to oust him. I hear that the fighting over the Syria vote has crossed a line in the Labour camp and the knifes are out anyway.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #272 on: December 02, 2015, 06:58:59 PM »
Considering the number of voters in the UK that isn't a great deal, and no doubt represents the extreme Lefties in the country. He won because many in the Labour party and those that joined for £3 (a policy that opened the door to such abuse) were also extreme Lefties. Given that he only got nominated because of the stupid Labour/Leftie attitude of naively helping the underdog with no sensibility of the dangers involved the Labour party were destined to fall foul of their myopic whinging.

You are making a category mistake here of those who joined for the leadership election, which was about 250,000, a small number in overall electoral terms but huge in terms of political parties, and those elaborate joined following.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #273 on: December 02, 2015, 06:59:57 PM »
The majority at the 2015 election was 14,000. It is unlikely to be totally out done, so the real question is how much will Corbyn lose from that majority. If it is substantial then expect real pressure from the moderates to try to oust him. I hear that the fighting over the Syria vote has crossed a line in the Labour camp and the knifes are out anyway.
it's nearly as bad as UKIP

ad_orientem

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Re: Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria
« Reply #274 on: December 02, 2015, 07:00:28 PM »
If the West backs Assad, I would predict a Sunni uprising which would make IS look like a tea-party, spreading right across the Sunni arc, Iraq, Syria, Turkey.  I suppose genocide might work.

The alternative, it seems, is to let ISIS win.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.