Arguments for and against the UK joining the strikes on ISIS in Syria

[Nearly Sane]

I'm in the no bombing camp, but we could have used that time to hit Assad's military bases. The fact that ISIS was just a twinkle in our eyes then didn't change the fact that Assad was bombing civilians which I believe is a fair reason, under UN law etc., to help out.

Which would then have created the vacuum. As to its legality, there wasn't a resolution then so not really the case. It is one of the differences between 2 years ago and today. There wouldn't have been much chance of getting a resolution then as Russia would have vetoed it.

[Jack Knave]

You see this is quite interesting because I thought Cameron was quite poor, certainly in comparison to Blair on Iraq which was a bit of a tour de force. Cameron doesn't do 'sincerity ' anywhere near as good as Blair.

I agree, Blair was a real slime ball, but the tactics of spin and half truths and the nature of the arguments were the same.

[wigginhall]

You can kill every IS member, but they will return in another form, until the issue of Sunni representation is solved.  In both countries, they feel shut out. 

You can see this with the history of Al Qaeda, who were largely destroyed in Iraq, but the Sunni tribes were shut out of national politics, and some of them moved back to IS.

This is so obvious, and every political analyst of the area has been saying it for years, but of course, how will it happen?   Russia and Iran want to bolster Assad, yet if he represses the Sunni tribes and groups, you are doomed to more civil war, or alternatively, large-scale massacres, and further extremism.   

[Jack Knave]

Which would then have created the vacuum. As to its legality, there wasn't a resolution then so not really the case. It is one of the differences between 2 years ago and today. There wouldn't have been much chance of getting a resolution then as Russia would have vetoed it.

The vacuum could have helped the moderate rebels to fight back which would have meant less would eventually go over to the emerging ISIS.

UN Resolution/Russia 2 years ago I agree on, but my point is that we wouldn't have needed one because civilians were being slaughtered.

[Nearly Sane]

The vacuum could have helped the moderate rebels to fight back which would have meant less would eventually go over to the emerging ISIS.

UN Resolution/Russia 2 years ago I agree on, but my point is that we wouldn't have needed one because civilians were being slaughtered.

It doesn't really matter, you still need one, hence the fuss over Iraq.


The 'moderate' rebels included what has become Da'esh, and various other groups of murdering thugs. The whole saintly rebel stuff was always a bag of shite. The Free Syrian Army was mince then, and mince now.

[Spud]

Dear Gabriella,

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/why-isis-hate-being-called-daesh-whats-correct-name-worlds-most-dangerous-terrorists-1531506

If you would rather not answer this question then I will understand.

I think it is important, Joe public are drip fed, ISIS, ISIL, IS, if we can distance ourselves from any reference which connects to Islam then I think in a small way we hit back at the terrorists.

But as I say, if you think this question is stupid or it makes you uneasy, don't answer, I am glad to see you posting, I wish we had more Muslim voices on this forum.

Gonnagle.

Good point, but the term daesh still means Islamic state. I agree with the article that the term 'state' is inappropriate for them, so we should not use any term that in any way conveys the meaning of a state. Thus, "so-called Islamic state" works. I would call Saudi Arabia an Islamic state, because its main religion is Islam. So I would call 'Isis' something simple like the Syrian death cult group.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Spud,

Syrian death cult group.

Well that works, but it is Joe public we need to convince, and Joe public is lazy and stupid ( bye the way, I am a member of Joe public )  Syrian death cult group is to long, daesh, which I have read they don't like, is small easy, Joe public likes easy, something they can hang their coat on.

Gonnagle.

[Bubbles]

Good point, but the term daesh still means Islamic state. I agree with the article that the term 'state' is inappropriate for them, so we should not use any term that in any way conveys the meaning of a state. Thus, "so-called Islamic state" works. I would call Saudi Arabia an Islamic state, because its main religion is Islam. So I would call 'Isis' something simple like the Syrian death cult group.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/why-isis-hate-being-called-daesh-whats-correct-name-worlds-most-dangerous-terrorists-1531506

Due to Arabic wordplay, it could also be an insult and IS threatened "to cut the tongue of anyone who publicly used the acronym Daesh, instead of referring to the group by its full name", the Associated Press wrote in September 2014.

Muslims have always preferred to use the term Daesh rather than Islamic State, given that, they argue, the territory the terrorist group controls in Iraq and Syria is neither Islamic nor a state.

I originally thought it was a bit much for the gov to tell the BBC how to phrase things ( propaganda ) but given the threats made by the terrorists, Daesh it is then.

If everyone does it, they can't cut everyone's tongue out. 

Perhaps the BBC didn't want to become a target like the French paper.

They won't be if every paper and media outlet and the public do it 🌹

[Nearly Sane]

60 - 90 Labour MPs being predicted to vote with Govt. If it is to high end and the majority in Oldham falls by a 15% swing, Corbyn may be gone by end of January.   Replaced by Dan Jarvis. Or he may remain and we may have a gang of 90.

So 66 was at the low end of expectation but the by election had a swing to Labour. The result makes it very hard to do anything about Corbyn, no matter how Hilary Benn's speech is seen.

[Bubbles]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-34988145

[Spud]

Dear Spud,

Well that works, but it is Joe public we need to convince, and Joe public is lazy and stupid ( bye the way, I am a member of Joe public )  Syrian death cult group is to long, daesh, which I have read they don't like, is small easy, Joe public likes easy, something they can hang their coat on.

Gonnagle.

How about 'Al-bagdaddy and the black flaggies'?

[jakswan]

So 66 was at the low end of expectation but the by election had a swing to Labour. The result makes it very hard to do anything about Corbyn, no matter how Hilary Benn's speech is seen.

Agreed a great result for Labour, Corbyn should remain until May at least and Labour do well then he should be good to go for the next election.

Hopefully this dissent within Labour will be stifled and we can have a more coherent opposition.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Story Telling Humans, ( this whole post is one big question )

http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/can-science-explain-why-we-tell-stories

I had forgotten all about this part of human thinking until I listened to Question Time last night, a Mr Maajid Nawaz ( a ex terrorist, I think ) who spoke about the narrative.

This got me thinking about Hilary Benn's  speech, I think that we can all agree Mr Benn told a wonderful story, he was out to win hearts and minds ( how do you win someone's heart ) but my two remaining grey cells did not stop there, what about all the other storytellers we heard in the House of Commons.

Cameron, the man has no passion and if he had shown a little humility we may have listened to his story using our heart ( yes heart, not mind ).

Corbyn, in my opinion, not a good story teller, and the poor man was constantly heckled ( but I seriously think he was trying to reach our minds, not heart ).

This morning as I was sitting on the cludgie ( I do some of my best thinking and reading sitting on the throne ) I was flipping through a small book entitled "The Art of Thinking Clearly" one of those kind of self help books, the author talks about the difference between intuitive  and rational thinking.

Rational, what do I think about this.

Intuitive, how do I feel about this.

When thinking ( the author states ) we mostly use our intuitive thinking, why, because it is easier, lazy mans thinking ( guilty yer honour ).

The world is full of lazy man/woman thinkers, gut instinct thinkers.

Anyway, what is all this chuntering about, daesh or IS, we need to win hearts and minds, especially the lazy mans heart and mind, this lazy man would be quite happy with, murdering terrorist bastards, but that is still to long.

Gonnagle.

PS: Feel free to tell me this post is just one long lazy man thinking.

[Udayana]

I think you are more worried about what they are called than they are

[ProfessorDavey]

Hopefully this dissent within Labour will be stifled and we can have a more coherent opposition.

I think that is virtually impossible - basically because Corbyn and a small group of his parliamentary supporters are fundamentally at odds with the vast majority of the parliamentary party.

While he has a mandate in the wider membership he has no mandate amongst Labour MPs, where I just a handful voted for him.

He also has the problem of credibility if he attempts to drive loyalty amongst his MPs, given that he has spent his parliamentary career voting time and again against his party leadership.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Udayana,

Worried, yes I am, did you happen to listen to Mr Andrew Neil last night when he tried to trivialise Camerons attempts to change  (rebrand as Mr Neil called it ) the BBC's mind about the issue.

Propaganda, the propaganda war ( the BBC have entertained and educated me since I was a child ) we all listen to the BBC, ( we might not agree ) they have a big part to play in this propaganda war.

Propaganda war at home, here, this little island, I don't want the lazy man thinker ( me ) to start pointing the finger, we do not want anti Islamic thinking on the street, daesh win if we go down that route.

Story telling, the BBC have been at it for years, daesh, a baby step, tell me I am wrong and I will shut up ( me wrong )

Gonnagle.

[Udayana]

Hi Gonnagle,

Actually I did catch Andrew Neil ... and you are right that the propaganda war needs to be fought, imo this is more important than bombing, Best way is for the BBC and media to bring us detailed factual reports with analysis about what is happening, not waste effort on trying to find something silly to call them!

Agree that we don't want the general public attacking Muslims here, but the best way is for Muslims to share their repudiation of ISIL ideology and that they do not associate themselves with it - rather than "hide" an association by choosing a name that does not, in it's English version, sound as if it contains "Islam".

[Gonnagle]

Dear Udayana,

Thank you for your reply, I could try and defend my position, I could reply to your post with kneejerk responses, but I won't, you have me thinking, "hide", "silly", how very dare you

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Udayana,

http://www.theweek.co.uk/isis/62422/islamic-state-daesh-or-isis-the-dilemma-of-naming-the-militants

Others suggest the matter of semantics is not the top priority when a group of murderous militants are taking lives across the world. As John Crace at The Guardian points out, "the least of the problems in dealing with Isis is deciding on what to call it".

Hmmm!!

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jul/02/bbc-rejects-mps-calls-to-refer-to-islamic-state-as-daesh

But the head of the BBC rejected the demands, saying that using Daesh would not preserve the BBC’s impartiality as it risked giving an impression of support for the group’s opponents, the Times reports. He is said to claim that the term is used pejoratively by its enemies.

Risk of giving support for the groups opponents.

One of the groups opponents.

Other groups have joined in the protest against the use of the name. In a letter to the prime minister, the Islamic Society of Britain and the Association of Muslim Lawyers said: “It is neither Islamic, nor is it a state. The group has no standing with faithful Muslims, nor among the international community of nations.”

In his column for the Dundee Courier, Salmond wrote: “We should start by understanding that in a propaganda war language is crucial.

“Any description of terrorists which confers on them the image that they are representing either a religion or a state must surely be wrong and an own goal of massive proportions. It is after all how they wish to refer to themselves.
“However, the real point of using Daesh is that it separates the terrorists from the religion they claim to represent and from the false dream of a new caliphate that they claim to pursue.”

Quoting Salmond, that hurt

Gonnagle.

[ProfessorDavey]

“However, the real point of using Daesh is that it separates the terrorists from the religion they claim to represent and from the false dream of a new caliphate that they claim to pursue.”

And why is that helpful - to me is simply seems dishonest.

It would be like deciding to call the IRA something that doesn't mention that they are Irish Republicans and their primary goal being to unite northern ireland with the rest of the republic. Why would it have helped to have called them something that was totally detached from what they were and what they were trying to achieve.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

And why is that helpful - to me is simply seems dishonest.

Propaganda, kill them with honesty.

The Irish, funny I was thinking about that this morning, I have many Irish friends my ex wife is one, south west coast, all republicans, ( came as a shock to them that Rangers supporters did not have horns and tails ) anyway, the majority voiced an expression I have heard over the last couple of weeks, not in my name!!

Gonnagle.

[ProfessorDavey]

Dear Prof,

Propaganda, kill them with honesty.

The Irish, funny I was thinking about that this morning, I have many Irish friends my ex wife is one, south west coast, all republicans, ( came as a shock to them that Rangers supporters did not have horns and tails ) anyway, the majority voiced an expression I have heard over the last couple of weeks, not in my name!!

Gonnagle.

I think dishonesty does no good at all - merely plays into their hands of being able to claim that the west can't even acknowledge our faith or our struggle.

I don't think that calling the IRA a made up word that sounds something like the acronym IRA, but in Gaelic to try to hide who they were and what they wanted would have helped on iota.

[Jack Knave]

Good point, but the term daesh still means Islamic state. I agree with the article that the term 'state' is inappropriate for them, so we should not use any term that in any way conveys the meaning of a state. Thus, "so-called Islamic state" works. I would call Saudi Arabia an Islamic state, because its main religion is Islam. So I would call 'Isis' something simple like the Syrian death cult group.

I thought ISIS meant Idiotic Stupid Imbecilic Shitheads.......?

Have I been misinformed?

[Jack Knave]

How about 'Al-bagdaddy and the black flaggies'?

That sounds like a Punk band.

[Nearly Sane]

At least we have our mojo back!