Author Topic: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.  (Read 28431 times)

ippy

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2015, 07:05:14 PM »
ippy, do you have any evidence that Nicky Morgan - Education Secretary - is in any way a person of faith?

Enjoy having a look Hope, I wasn't looking.

Ippy

Hope

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2015, 08:01:08 PM »
Enjoy having a look Hope, I wasn't looking.

Ippy
You're a bit behind the curve, ippy.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Hope

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2015, 08:03:42 PM »
You could always have a look.
Don't need to, Shakes.  The number of children who have grown up in such a situation are pretty small, and the number who have been followed into adulthood even less.  There wouldn't be a sufficient number to provide a valid sample.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

ippy

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2015, 08:22:17 AM »
You're a bit behind the curve, ippy.

Beats being permanently behind the curve, Hope.

ippy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2015, 08:41:51 AM »
Why on earth would they or indeed anybody hold such a bizarre attitude?

I think you sound doomed to a life of wondering why people don't think exactly like you , the again I don't think you would have given the matter half a thought until it became an antitheist issue.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 08:43:44 AM by On stage before it wore off. »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2015, 09:05:24 AM »
The bigot who Cameron thought should be equality minister.

http://m.leicestermercury.co.uk/Loughborough-MP-Nicky-Morgan-explains-voted/story-18148357-detail/story.html

Own up Squeeky. Tell me that your interest in this issue wasn't it's antitheist potential.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2015, 09:30:08 AM »
ippy, do you have any evidence that Nicky Morgan - Education Secretary - is in any way a person of faith?
Where have you been Hope.

She is well known as a prominent Christian. That said she doesn't appear to have brought her faith position into her ministerial responsibilities too much. Thankfully she isn't Eric Pickles who seemed to consider his ministerial position as an opportunity to further religious aims.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2015, 09:36:41 AM »
The appointment of Morgan was astonishing enough; that she couldn't put aside her prejudices in order to do her job properly should be a resignation matter, surely.
I'm not a tory and rarely stand up for them, but I think there needs to be some clarification.

She voted against gay marriage in 2013, in a free vote, before she became a minister. She became equalities minister in 2014. Sure there is a big question over whether she was the right person for the job but she didn't actually vote against gay marriage at the time she was a minister.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 09:45:46 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2015, 09:48:34 AM »
I'm not a tory and rarely stand up for them, but I think there needs to be some clarification.

She voted against gay marriage in 2013, in a free vote, before she became a minister. She became equalities minister in 2014. Sure there is a big question over whether she was the right person for the job but she didn't actually vote against gay marriage at the time she was a minister.
How can an Osbornite/Cameronite be an equalities minister anyway?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2015, 09:56:41 AM »
How can an Osbornite/Cameronite be an equalities minister anyway?
Actually one of the very few things that Cameron has done as PM that I deeply approve of and will probably have a positive and lasting legacy for him is his decision (which seemed largely personal) to push through equal marriage.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2015, 10:04:11 AM »
Actually one of the very few things that Cameron has done as PM that I deeply approve of and will probably have a positive and lasting legacy for him is his decision (which seemed largely personal) to push through equal marriage.
I wonder whether that was to grab the votes of an untapped well heeled demographic though.

Aruntraveller

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2015, 10:07:07 AM »
I wonder whether that was to grab the votes of an untapped well heeled demographic though.

No - he lost votes because of it if I recall correctly
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2015, 10:12:02 AM »
No - he lost votes because of it if I recall correctly
Really.....which and how many?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2015, 11:57:24 AM »
No - he lost votes because of it if I recall correctly
I think it is pretty difficult to determine whether a single policy gains or loses you votes in a general election, because even for those that might tell opinion polls that they are more or less likely to vote for a party due to a single issue, when there is finally a choice at a general election based on a range of policies and personalities the importance of that single issue often fades.

So I doubt very much that Cameron's decision to back equal marriage would have been 'political' - i.e. calculated to gain votes. And certainly he got a lot of flack from a very vocal 'anti' minority of reactionaries within his own party.

So I genuinely think he supported equal marriage on principle, because he recognised it to be the right thing to do, rather than for narrow partisan political gain.

I suspect that history will think pretty poorly of Cameron as PM, but there will be probably 2 highlights, one political and the other changing the social landscape.

The political being winning a second general election with an increased vote share having been PM for a full term - that's pretty well unprecedented.

And the social change - well of course allowing gay couples to marry, which I have no doubt in years to come society will look back in horror at a time when gay couples were banned from getting married.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2015, 12:34:57 PM »


And the social change - well of course allowing gay couples to marry, which I have no doubt in years to come society will look back in horror at a time when gay couples were banned from getting married.
And that straight couples were not allowed to have civil partnerships.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2015, 01:15:51 PM »
And that straight couples were not allowed to have civil partnerships.
I doubt it as civil partnerships are only a very recent development in the broad sweep of history and I have no doubt too that they will either vanish pretty soon as a concept or will be extended to opposite gender couples. So their presence and inequality (which is effectively only really an issue since equal marriage was allowed) will be at best a footnote in history.

And besides where are all the people up in arms, campaigning for civil partnerships to be available to heterosexual couples. I agree that they should be, but this is hardly a big issue.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2015, 01:18:07 PM »
I doubt it as civil partnerships are only a very recent development in the broad sweep of history.
Yes just like gay marriage.

Only a recent concern and one for the people on this forum chiefly and merely for it's potential for antichristian mischief.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2015, 01:22:08 PM »
Yes just like gay marriage.
There is no such thing as 'gay marriage' - there is only marriage, which has now been extended to allow same sex couples to get married.

And marriage has been around for rather longer than a few years, as I'm sure you will appreciate

Shaker

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2015, 01:23:45 PM »
Yes just like gay marriage.
No, Vlad - marriage has been around for a very very long time indeed. The point is that it's taken until very recently for people in secular liberal democracies, what Popper called open societies - most of them anyway - to stop and think about it and realise that it's injust to restrict it to opposite-sex couples only.

Quote
only a recent concern and one for the people on this forum chiefly and merely for it's potential for antichristian mischief.
You'll have some evidence for that? There's no doubt at all however that the post-Enlightenment decline of religious adherence in the West has seen a corresponding rise in the primacy of the individual and concepts of human/civil rights.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2015, 01:30:56 PM »
Indeed, I will say that Vlad is right that equal marriage was a relatively recent concern. The reason for that is that in living memory homosexuality could be prosecuted for sexual activity, and only 25 years ago we had the Tories introducing Clause 28, so the fight on those areas took precedent.

Given the two beautiful marriage of my gay friends I attended last year were a both of religious couples one Christian couple and one Jewish, I fail to see anything that would allow his rather pathetic portraying thi as being about antiChristian




Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2015, 01:31:57 PM »
There is no such thing as 'gay marriage' - there is only marriage,
You mean civil marriage. I am not obliged to recognise your reductionism.

I support the right of all to a civil marriage.
I do not trivialise the importance of civil partnership.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 01:42:58 PM by On stage before it wore off. »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2015, 01:51:00 PM »
There's no doubt at all however that the post-Enlightenment decline of religious adherence in the West has seen a corresponding rise in the primacy of the individual and concepts of human/civil rights.
LOL.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2015, 01:54:50 PM »
You mean civil marriage. I am not obliged to recognise your reductionism.

I support the right of all to a civil marriage.
I do not trivialise the importance of civil partnership.
Not really, although even civil marriage has been around since the 1830s.

But the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 doesn't in any way limit extension of marriage to same sex couples purely to civil marriage. Sure it provides an opt out for religious organisations, but that isn't the same as it being limited. So religions are able to chose to extend their own marriage rules to include same sex couples. And there are some religious organisations that are already providing marriage to same sex couples. Now the obvious anomaly is the CofE where parliament is required to change the rules, but even then that isn't really an unmovable blanket ban.

So if we track forward 100 years I'd be pretty confident that many religious organisations will have changed their views in the face of same sex marriage being commonplace and will have started to offer their own religious ceremonies to same sex couples.

So in summary you are wrong, this isn't merely about civil marriage as there are already, under the new law, religious same sex marriages taking place in the UK.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2015, 01:58:06 PM »
this isn't merely about civil marriage as there are already, under the new law, religious same sex marriages taking place in the UK.
Yes.....But holy matrimony is a matter for us not you

Shaker

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Re: We're still nibbling away at the religionists.
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2015, 02:01:10 PM »
Yes.....But holy matrimony is a matter for us not you
You're welcome to it.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.