Donald Trump

[Jack Knave]

Been tried a while back.

Didn't end well.

That's no reason for trying again. This is different circumstances.

[Shaker]

That's no reason for trying again. This is different circumstances.

No, it's exactly the same circumstances - fearful and hard-of-thinking dipshits suggesting monstrous things be done to innocent people and jerking their knees because that's about the only part of them that functions more or less properly.

[Jack Knave]

No, the risk is the same for all. For those who die in terrorist attacks, it really is a case of being incredibly unlucky. That doesn't make it any less appalling or upsetting, but I take a bigger risk every time I go on the school run.

Yes, things could get worse. But as my crystal ball gazing skills aren't up to much I suggest crossing that bridge as and when.

You mean closing the stable doors after the all the horses have bolted?

[Rhiannon]

You mean closing the stable doors after the all the horses have bolted?

The problem is that our attempts to take preemptive action has led in part to where we are now. We don't contain the problem so much as create a whole load of new ones. So yes, things might get worse, but they also might not, and recent experience would suggest that the latter is more likely the less we interfere.

[Maeght]

M, if a cop can't drive to work in his uniform it's a no go area, I would have thought?

Don't agree. No go area suggests something more than that to me.

[Jack Knave]

Don't agree. No go area suggests something more than that to me.

...and me.

[Jack Knave]

The problem is that our attempts to take preemptive action has led in part to where we are now. We don't contain the problem so much as create a whole load of new ones. So yes, things might get worse, but they also might not, and recent experience would suggest that the latter is more likely the less we interfere.

So we are like someone in shock? Too scared to move but too afraid to stand still. We've been stupefied by our own hubris and our arrogant sense of self-worth and capabilities.

[Rhiannon]

So we are like someone in shock? Too scared to move but too afraid to stand still. We've been stupefied by our own hubris and our arrogant sense of self-worth and capabilities.

9/11 was the shocker. It's our response to that that has got us here, partly. Its not fear that prevents us from acting, but the realisation that the bulk of what we've done so far has been stupid.

[Jack Knave]

9/11 was the shocker. It's our response to that that has got us here, partly. Its not fear that prevents us from acting, but the realisation that the bulk of what we've done so far has been stupid.

We're dammed if we do and we're dammed if we don't.

[Rhiannon]

We're dammed if we do and we're dammed if we don't.

We don't actually know that...

[Jack Knave]

We don't actually know that...

If we do nothing then the jihadist will preach that the West doesn't care as the ME goes into melt down and allow them to preach their evil over the internet thereby recruiting more killers. And as we allow all Muslims into our country these killers will come in and also leave to be trained up to return to kill us.

Or we be proactive and they say look the West have invaded our ME lands killing us without restraint, they oppress us in their homelands and treat us like dogs and those already here will then be more incensed to kill us.

Can you think of a third scenario?

[Rhiannon]

Your fortune-telling skills are better than mine, Jack.

[wigginhall]

Trump's ideas amount to a white racist programme, with hints of fascism as well.   If the US were to make these its official policy, the effects would likely be disastrous, not just for the US, but around the world.  Hopefully, enough US citizens will realize this. 

[Rhiannon]

Trump's ideas amount to a white racist programme, with hints of fascism as well.   If the US were to make these its official policy, the effects would likely be disastrous, not just for the US, but around the world.  Hopefully, enough US citizens will realize this.

Agreed. 

[Sriram]

Trump said Muslims should be prevented from entering the US, only a small minority of Muslims are terrorists!

No. Trump wants to prevent terrorists from entering his country. The only way he thinks that is possible is by preventing all muslims from entering the country.

The emphasis is entirely different.

[Rhiannon]

No. Trump wants to prevent terrorists from entering his country. The only way he thinks that is possible is by preventing all muslims from entering the country.

The emphasis is entirely different.

You may be correct about what Trump wants - although I think his motives are far more calculated than this - but it's a catastrophically stupid idea.

[Hope]

No. Trump wants to prevent terrorists from entering his country. The only way he thinks that is possible is by preventing all muslims from entering the country.

The emphasis is entirely different.

Out of interest, Sri, of the various terrorist attacks that have occurred in the US over, say, the last 30 years how many have been committed by Muslims, let alone extremist Muslims?  A percentage will do.

I appreciate that in terms of death toll, the latter have caused the highest figure, but ...

[Sriram]

Out of interest, Sri, of the various terrorist attacks that have occurred in the US over, say, the last 30 years how many have been committed by Muslims, let alone extremist Muslims?  A percentage will do.

I appreciate that in terms of death toll, the latter have caused the highest figure, but ...

I remember 9/11 and the recent one. Possibly some more I don't recall. I think almost all terrorist attacks have been by muslims (Al-Qaida or ISIS).

The racist attacks and the mad cap attacks of school children etc...they do on their own internally...no muslim migrants required!   

[wigginhall]

It's only semantics that labels mass shootings by white men not terrorism.  Also, it means you don't have  to tackle the gun problem in the US.   How many have there been?  About 1000 in the last 3 years, I suppose about one per day.  Still, let's focus on the Muslims, then white racist views have a sort of respectable facade. 

[Bubbles]

Not no go areas according to to that but areas where extra vigilance and care is needed - which is not a surprise but is certainly something not to be taken lightly either.

Yes there is a difference.

If Europe isn't careful it could head down the holocaust route, again.

[Bubbles]

M, if a cop can't drive to work in his uniform it's a no go area, I would have thought?

Vicars and soldiers both are advised not to wear their uniforms because they may get picked on ( not by Muslims, incidentally) is your local shop in a no go area?

Lots of people are advised not to wear identifying clothing outside of their profession, it doesn't mean it's a no go area.

Anyway what relevance is the police uniform in their patrol car when they have flashing lights and POLICE emblasoned down the side of their patrol car?

It doesn't make sense, does it? It just might give it away 

It only makes sense if they are off duty and in their own car, well that warning has been around a lot longer than Muslim terrorists.

[Rhiannon]

It's only semantics that labels mass shootings by white men not terrorism.  Also, it means you don't have  to tackle the gun problem in the US.   How many have there been?  About 1000 in the last 3 years, I suppose about one per day.  Still, let's focus on the Muslims, then white racist views have a sort of respectable facade. 

 http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence

It's not just in the States either. Was the recent stabbing in Leytonstone a true terror attack? I don't think it was, but it makes a better headline, especially when there are voters to be won over.

[Shaker]

Yes there is a difference.

If Europe isn't careful it could head down the holocaust route, again.

See #142.

[wigginhall]

I think in the US white killers tend not to be labelled terrorists, partly because they are often not as ideologically driven, but also there is a kind of not subtle racism at work.   Brown people are terrorists, and white people are just mass killers, then we know who the real enemy is, and we can ignore the access to guns.   But Sandy Hook has been called domestic terrorism, although the motives are unknown.  (But quite a lot of white killers seem to have an anti-government agenda).

But there is a push to use the label 'white terrorist', for example, the killings recently at the abortion centre (Planned Parenthood). 

[Bubbles]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslim-anti-isis-march-not-covered-by-mainstream-media-outlets-say-organisers-a6765976.html

We don't hear about it.