Call for Euthanasia on Psychological Grounds To Be Banned

[Outrider]

As I suggested earlier, there is a perfectly painless, controlled, measured method of terminating your own life, all you need is the determination to proceed with it.

Sorry, I must have missed that - I'm not aware of an easily available, painless, reliable method of killing yourself.

O.

[Shaker]

If Udayana is referring to self-starvation as before, then it's a slow and anything but painless death.

[Udayana]

It is slow, but painless as you become accustomed to it. And you can opt out if you change your mind, at least until the major organs have shut down.

[Rhiannon]

It is slow, but painless as you become accustomed to it.

Even if this is true, if you try it and you get found out you'll be sectioned and fed against your will, one way or another. That's without the impact self-starvation has on loved ones...I've known too many affected by anorexia to think that this is in any way kind.

[Shaker]

It is slow, but painless as you become accustomed to it.

Testimony of those who have starved says otherwise.

In any case, when the means of an instantaneous and painless death are available, why should people be denied them?

[Udayana]

Even if this is true, if you try it and you get found out you'll be sectioned and fed against your will, one way or another. That's without the impact self-starvation has on loved ones...I've known too many affected by anorexia to think that this is in any way kind.

So they would rather their relative had just died rather than suffer from anorexia?

Sorry .. in any case those are obviously cases where there is an underlying psychological problem - not a case  where some has chosen death as a rational conclusion.

[Shaker]

So they would rather their relative had just died rather than suffer from anorexia?

Died easily and painlessly (death from starvation isn't) is I think the point.

[floo]

I would wish a member of my family to die if they wished it, rather than suffer unrelieved physical/psychological problems. I would hope, if that were the case, I would have the courage to help them out if there was no other way they could achieve that end.

[Udayana]

Floo, I am trying to discuss cases where there is no unrelieved (or un-treatable) physical/psychological problem. As constantly recommended by Keith, though I have not heard of a good example case.

[Rhiannon]

So they would rather their relative had just died rather than suffer from anorexia?

That wasn't what I said - 'affected by anorexia' includes both victims and their families and I've known both. Watching a loved one self-starve as a means of control or catharsis is horrific. Having a feeding tube that you don't want is horrific and if you are sectioned and starving yourself then that is what you get. It's unrelenting. And anorexics generally aren't suicidal, but sometimes die anyway.

And for those who are suicidal we have quick, pain-free, kinder options, and yet you think this would be a better bet.

[Outrider]

Floo, I am trying to discuss cases where there is no unrelieved (or un-treatable) physical/psychological problem. As constantly recommended by Keith, though I have not heard of a good example case.

What if someone is old, not yet ailing but hoping to avoid the situation, and feels they've run their course? They don't want to get to the point where incapacity robs them of enjoyment, they want to go out whilst they still remember everything, where people's memory of them is untainted by frailty and the effects of time?

O.

[Rhiannon]

Floo, I am trying to discuss cases where there is no unrelieved (or un-treatable) physical/psychological problem. As constantly recommended by Keith, though I have not heard of a good example case.

Do we even know enough to say what is or isn't an unrelievable/untreatable psychological problem?

[Udayana]

What if someone is old, not yet ailing but hoping to avoid the situation, and feels they've run their course? They don't want to get to the point where incapacity robs them of enjoyment, they want to go out whilst they still remember everything, where people's memory of them is untainted by frailty and the effects of time?

O.

Vanity?

[Udayana]

Do we even know enough to say what is or isn't an unrelievable/untreatable psychological problem?

No, we don't - another can of worms!

[Rhiannon]

No, we don't - another can of worms!

So when you say that someone with no untreatable problem is seeking assisted dying, you could be wrong.

[Rhiannon]

Vanity?

Or fear. Or compassion.

[Outrider]

Vanity?

Does that invalidate how they feel?

Does the fact that you'd consider that vanity mean that they're right to self-determination is abrogated, or that their understanding of what their life means to them is wrong?

O.

[Udayana]

So when you say that someone with no untreatable problem is seeking assisted dying, you could be wrong.

Yes, that's actually what kicked off this thread.

"Belgian experts call for euthanasia on psychological grounds to be removed from the law"

A group of Belgian psychiatrists and psychologists wants the permission for euthanasia removed from people with psychological suffering (rather than other medical problems) on the basis that their conditions can be treated or may not otherwise be permanent.
 
I think the situation in Belgium, where euthanasia is legal in a variety of circumstances, has been affected by the number of teenagers or young adults requesting euthanasia on the basis of psychological suffering but no clearly untreatable illness.

[Udayana]

Or fear. Or compassion.

Well, there was this case only recently:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34991931

I suppose the question is: Should doctors have helped her commit suicide at an earlier stage - before she attempted it badly herself?

All kudos to her for her confidence in her own decision to refuse treatment and sticking to it. However I think with good care she could have been persuaded to change her mind and see life and decline more benevolently.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, that's actually what kicked off this thread.

"Belgian experts call for euthanasia on psychological grounds to be removed from the law"

A group of Belgian psychiatrists and psychologists wants the permission for euthanasia removed from people with psychological suffering (rather than other medical problems) on the basis that their conditions can be treated or may not otherwise be permanent.
 
I think the situation in Belgium, where euthanasia is legal in a variety of circumstances, has been affected by the number of teenagers or young adults requesting euthanasia on the basis of psychological suffering but no clearly untreatable illness.

But that doesn't mean that they don't have an untreatable illness.

[floo]

Floo, I am trying to discuss cases where there is no unrelieved (or un-treatable) physical/psychological problem. As constantly recommended by Keith, though I have not heard of a good example case.

Not every psychological or physical problem can be treated and relieved. My late father was a case in point. He was suffering from terminal prostate cancer in 2005, and the pain relief was not relieving his gross discomfort even though the dosage of morphine was high. In the end we insisted that he was given a much higher dose even though we knew that would kill him in hours, which it did. We were so glad for him when his suffering ended.

[Udayana]

Does that invalidate how they feel?

Does the fact that you'd consider that vanity mean that they're right to self-determination is abrogated, or that their understanding of what their life means to them is wrong?

O.

But it is not self-determination is it? It is passing over control and responsibility to the rest of us. So we then have every right to decide whether it is OK or not.

[Outrider]

But it is not self-determination is it? It is passing over control and responsibility to the rest of us. So we then have every right to decide whether it is OK or not.

No, they aren't passing responsibility on to anyone, they want to be able to access the drugs - that doesn't make anyone else responsible, they still have to take them.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

But that doesn't mean that they don't have an untreatable illness.

Isn't that what the Belgians are arguing about?

[Udayana]

Not every psychological or physical problem can be treated and relieved. My late father was a case in point. He was suffering from terminal prostate cancer in 2005, and the pain relief was not relieving his gross discomfort even though the dosage of morphine was high. In the end we insisted that he was given a much higher dose even though we knew that would kill him in hours, which it did. We were so glad for him when his suffering ended.

Yes, I generally agree that for un-treatable cases, physical or mental, where there is unrelieved suffering  that society should help in dying. There will always be some debate over which cases are treatable/un-treatable, which suffering is unbearable, which not.