Why the state must stop funding faith schools

[Gordon]

Then it would have kept on giving and giving. The roman empire should have had loads of messiahs. There should be at least several messiah based religions. However there is only really one.

It did - antiquity was crawling with religious sects.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I haven't made a positive claim, Vlad.

I've simply noted that making mistakes and telling lies is known human behaviour and I've asked how you guys have addressed the risks in relation to the NT - so, are you going to evade again or answer?

And we know that a lie of this magnitude doesn't work. That is my assessment of the risk and damn fine it is too. There is little risk of this being a lie and working. That is the evidence. Jeremy P cites 200 that didn't work.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It did - antiquity was crawling with religious sects.

Not anywhere near the scale of Christianity.

[Gordon]

And we know that a lie of this magnitude doesn't work. That is my assessment of the risk and damn fine it is too. There is little risk of this being a lie and working. That is the evidence. Jeremy P cites 200 that didn't work.

So, your 'assessment' consists of what you'd like to be the case. Here is a quote from Bertrand Russell - he could be talking about you, Vlad!

If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.

[Gordon]

Not anywhere near the scale of Christianity.

Argumentum ad populum.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So, your 'assessment' consists of what you'd like to be the case. Here is a quote from Bertrand Russell - he could be talking about you, Vlad!

No my assessment is of what is the case. This type of lie does not work as a world religion vis the extinction of them all.

[Gordon]

No my assessment is of what is the case. This type of lie does not work as a world religion vis the extinction of them all.

Hope the weather stays calm for you, Vlad, as you drift helplessly upon the Ocean of Fallacies without sail, oar or rudder to help you.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Hope the weather stays calm for you, Vlad, as you drift helplessly upon the Ocean of Fallacies without sail, oar or rudder to help you.

The question remains though Gordon why are messianic sects unsuccessful except one?

[Outrider]

No my assessment is of what is the case. This type of lie does not work as a world religion vis the extinction of them all.

Except Christianity.

And Islam.

And Buddhism.

And Jainism.

And Hinduism.

And Sikhism.

And Shintoism.

And Mormonism (for those that don't think it's part of Christianity)

And Ba'hai.

And Scientology.

Apart from those, what have the Romans ever done for.. oh, wait, wrong sketch. Sorry, carry on, I felt a bit funny there...

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Except Christianity.

And Islam.

And Buddhism.

And Jainism.

And Hinduism.

And Sikhism.

And Shintoism.

And Mormonism (for those that don't think it's part of Christianity)

And Ba'hai.

And Scientology.

Apart from those, what have the Romans ever done for.. oh, wait, wrong sketch. Sorry, carry on, I felt a bit funny there...

O.

Only one though is messianic though.

Perhaps you should have read how the thread was going before contributing.

[Outrider]

Only one though is messianic though.

Perhaps you should have read how the thread was going before contributing.

Why? Messianic is only a requirement for a religion to flourish in the wake of the previous religion, it's a cultural meme. Why pre-emptively exclude other religions?

You'd arbitrarily selected a Messiah property as 'necessary' to be true, but if I arbitrarily select polytheism then you either have to acknowledge that Satan's at least a demigod in the conventional portrayal or switch to decide that Christianity's not all that.

If the property of durability validates religions, then whether they're Messianic or not is irrelevant. If the property of having a messiah counts for something, you need to justify that claim on its own.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why? Messianic is only a requirement for a religion to flourish in the wake of the previous religion, it's a cultural meme. Why pre-emptively exclude other religions?

You'd arbitrarily selected a Messiah property as 'necessary' to be true, but if I arbitrarily select polytheism then you either have to acknowledge that Satan's at least a demigod in the conventional portrayal or switch to decide that Christianity's not all that.

If the property of durability validates religions, then whether they're Messianic or not is irrelevant. If the property of having a messiah counts for something, you need to justify that claim on its own.

O.

What does this have to do with comparison between messianic sects.

I have never said non messianic view points couldn't make the world grade.

What is worse than butting in and getting it wrong is then trying to justify it. why are you doing it?

[Gordon]

The question remains though Gordon why are messianic sects unsuccessful except one?

That Christianity has survived isn't an indication that Christianity is true or correct. That it did survive involves people and the use of religion in social and political terms and we still see this today, but where in some places (like here in the UK) what we are now seeing is the influence of Christianity weakening, just as others religions have done.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That Christianity has survived isn't an indication that Christianity is true or correct. That it did survive involves people and the use of religion in social and political terms and we still see this today, but where in some places (like here in the UK) what we are now seeing is the influence of Christianity weakening, just as others religions have done.

So let me get this straight. The growth of Christianity means nothing in terms of it's correctness but it's weakening influence does?

Which messianic religion is it losing out to?

[Gordon]

So let me get this straight. The growth of Christianity means nothing in terms of it's correctness but it's weakening influence does?

Do try reading for comprehension, Vlad, since I have nowhere suggested that the growth or decline of a religion correlates with the truth of its claims.

It is the role of religion in social and political terms throughout history that is relevant, along with wider issues such as education and expanding knowledge, whereby the simplistic explanations of religion have less currency than they once did, leading to reducing influence.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Do try reading for comprehension, Vlad, since I have nowhere suggested that the growth or decline of a religion correlates with the truth of its claims.

It is the role of religion in social and political terms throughout history that is relevant, along with wider issues such as education and expanding knowledge, whereby the simplistic explanations of religion have less currency than they once did, leading to reducing influence.

I think that thesis is quite debatable Gordon but what get's me is your implicit linkage with education and non religion.

I can see a correlation historically between increased wealth in employment and increasing materialism...which requires the abandonment of concentration on religion and some of those precepts valued in religion and people confusing what the do with the way the world is or should be but whether all that has any virtue I don't know. There has certainly been a dumbing down and a return to a curriculum and educational elitism which obviously suits ''The few''......Today it is very much in the areas where religion is receding that ''Most toys wins''.

That RE has been piss poor for decades is obvious in your own assumptions.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Chuns,

I think that thesis is quite debatable Gordon but what get's me is your implicit linkage with education and non religion.

Why? The correlation is a strong one - in general, the higher the educational standards the lower the religiosity, and vice versa.   

I can see a correlation historically between increased wealth in employment and increasing materialism...which requires the abandonment of concentration on religion and some of those precepts valued in religion and people confusing what the do with the way the world is or should be but whether all that has any virtue I don't know.

You might want to try to unscramble that a little, but if you're heading towards the notion that material wellbeing correlates with declining religiosity, that's probably true - possibly something to do with the fatalism of, "well it's crap here, but at least I'll get my reward in the afterlife" or some such being less important when access to medicines and the like mean it's not so crap here after all. That said, the bored wealthy do sometimes seem to be fertile ground for the barmier extremes of supersitionism.     

There has certainly been a dumbing down and a return to a curriculum and educational elitism which obviously suits ''The few''......Today it is very much in the areas where religion is receding that ''Most toys wins''.

Is that right? No doubt you'll be along soon to provide some examples of this supposed dumbing down. From my perspective, educational practice has changed from rote learning to creative and sceptical thinking but that seems to me to be a change for the good.

That RE has been piss poor for decades is obvious in your own assumptions.

What makes you think that RE is "piss poor" exactly? It seems to me that describing the different superstitions and attendant practices of different peoples is a useful way to encourage children to accept others and otherness - a much healthier approach in my view than the sectarianism of faith schools.

[Outrider]

What does this have to do with comparison between messianic sects.

One of my points is that you are rather arbitrary in your decision to limit to Messianic Arab cults - in any small environment you will get competition for resources that tend towards monopoly.

I have never said non messianic view points couldn't make the world grade.

Perhaps, but the justification of accepting the validity of Christianity 'because it survived' presumably equally applies to the others?

What is worse than butting in and getting it wrong is then trying to justify it. why are you doing it?

I'd say what is worse is trying to rig your argument with arbitrary restrictions before you start. I'm doing this to point that out.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

One of my points is that you are rather arbitrary in your decision to limit to Messianic Arab cults - in any small environment you will get competition for resources that tend towards monopoly.

Perhaps, but the justification of accepting the validity of Christianity 'because it survived' presumably equally applies to the others?

I'd say what is worse is trying to rig your argument with arbitrary restrictions before you start. I'm doing this to point that out.

O.

Gordon alleged that there was no consideration among Christians that Christianity could be a lie. I think that's the whole point of someone like CS Lewis coming up with the trilemma and I have refuted Gordon by considering that with hundreds of messianic religions only one has made it to world class status. I have made no statement of that in itself proving correctness just that messianic religions do not work. The 'lie' component invariably fails. In fact messianic religions because of the numbers involved do not work.........and yet one has.

Gordon asks us to consider messianic lies. I have................. they evidently don't work.

We are then left wondering why Christianity has.

[Gordon]

Gordon alleged that there was no consideration among Christians that Christianity could be a lie.

No I didn't - I asked you what steps you'd taken to assess the risks of mistakes or lies. For all I know you have done this: hence my question.

I think that's the whole point of someone like CS Lewis coming up with the trilemma and I have refuted Gordon by considering that with hundreds of messianic religions only one has made it to world class status.

No you haven't, you've just fallen for survivor bias.

I have made no statement of that in itself proving correctness just that messianic religions do not work. The 'lie' component invariably fails. In fact messianic religions because of the numbers involved do not work.........and yet one has.

You've introduced this messianic dimension, as part of you falling for survivor bias.

Gordon asks us to consider messianic lies. I have................. they evidently don't work.

We are then left wondering why Christianity has.

I never mentioned messianic: you did. As regards why Christianity has survived, that is down to people.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No I didn't - I asked you what steps you'd taken to assess the risks of mistakes or lies. For all I know you have done this: hence my question.

No you haven't, you've just fallen for survivor bias.

You've introduced this messianic dimension, as part of you falling for survivor bias.

I never mentioned messianic: you did. As regards why Christianity has survived, that is down to people.

Gordon

You accused me of not considering the lie aspect. I have and you have been found out.
Stop trying to slither out of your meet, condign, righteous and just humiliation by conjuring survivor bias.

I am not about to take on the faith of others. That is mere intellectual assent. I must realise it's truth....................otherwise it's just what you guys have.................... factoids and more factoids. Which you can take or leave.

Why did it survive? I'm asking.

[Gordon]

Gordon

You accused me of not considering the lie aspect. I have and you have been found out.
Stop trying to slither out of your meet, condign, righteous and just humiliation by conjuring survivor bias.

In that case you'll be able to explain the basis of your discounting the possibility of lies in the NT - won't you!

I am not about to take on the faith of others. That is mere intellectual assent. I must realise it's truth....................otherwise it's just what you guys have.................... factoids and more factoids. Which you can take or leave.

Why did it survive? I'm asking.

People, Vlad, just people and their agendas.

[Nearly Sane]

Gordon

You accused me of not considering the lie aspect. I have and you have been found out.
Stop trying to slither out of your meet, condign, righteous and just humiliation by conjuring survivor bias.

I am not about to take on the faith of others. That is mere intellectual assent. I must realise it's truth....................otherwise it's just what you guys have.................... factoids and more factoids. Which you can take or leave.

Why did it survive? I'm asking.

It is quite amazing that on the subject of lies, you should lie about what Gordon said, particularly when you quoted his post which shows your lie. Why do you find it so necessary to lie so often on here?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It is quite amazing that on the subject of lies, you should lie about what Gordon said, particularly when you quoted his post which shows your lie. Why do you find it so necessary to lie so often on here?

Gordon's assertion about an assessment of lying was countered in reply 91 with an assessment given.
He then makes the assertion again in reply 94. The assessment of the possibility of lying is made again
Gordon then repeats the accusation a second time in post 98.

[Gordon]

Gordon's assertion about an assessment of lying was countered in reply 91 with an assessment given.
He then makes the assertion again in reply 94. The assessment of the possibility of lying is made again
Gordon then repeats the accusation a second time in post 98.

In #87, which you responded to in #91, I said;

'Not really - I'm just asking you guys what steps you have taken to assess the risk of mistakes or lies in the NT accounts: do date I've yet to see a response that actually addressed these risks. '

In post #94 I said;

'Ah - the old switcheroo burden of proof-wise: I'm just asking how you guys have assessed the risk of mistakes or lies in the NT accounts - any chance of an explanation? '

and in post #98 I said;

'I've simply noted that making mistakes and telling lies is known human behaviour and I've asked how you guys have addressed the risks in relation to the NT - so, are you going to evade again or answer?'

On each occasion I've asked how you've addressed the risks of mistakes or lies in the NT - any chance of an answer or are you, as usual. going to wriggle and evade?