Was Jesus gay?

[Aruntraveller]

There might be more Judy Garland on Songs of Praise.

So there would be some good that would come out of this tedious non topic 

[floo]

So there would be some good that would come out of this tedious non topic 

This should be a non topic, because being gay should be no big deal anymore than being heterosexual is no big deal. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone who is gay by posting the thread, and apologise if I have.

[Hope]

Don't recall Jesus did much to help the women of his time, eh

Who brought the news of his resurrection, and to whom did he first appear post-resurrection, trippy?  We also know that he had 12 named disciples but some 70 followers, of which several were women, all of whom were sent out to share his message at at least one point in his ministry.  There are records of his performing miracles specifically for women, and he also got stroppy with his (male) disciples when they tried to stop mothers with children coming to talk to him.  In the cointext in which we live, that wouldn't be regarded as much; in the context of the time, that would have been.

In fact, trippy, there are plenty of stories within the Gospels of Jesus making time mtoo speak with women, often with women that no 'respectable' Jew would be seen talking to.

[Hope]

Gay or straight I hope Jesus had a good consensual sex life.

Actually, it would appear that he remained celibate, as has been the case with many people throughout history.  Sex and sexuality isn't the be-all and end-all of human life.

[Hope]

This should be a non topic, because being gay should be no big deal anymore than being heterosexual is no big deal. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone who is gay by posting the thread, and apologise if I have.

Floo, I think the problem with a thread like this is that it is predicated on an English word - love - that covers a range of emotions; in reality, many other languages, such as Greek and Hebrew, have a range of words that cover individual aspects of that range of emotions. As such, the topic is - as you say - a non-topic because we are often talking at one or more remove from the original meaning of the material.

[jeremyp]

Actually, it would appear that he remained celibate, as has been the case with many people throughout history.

Got any evidence of that?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Got any evidence of that?

Are you appealing to selfish gene theory or one where the goal of humanity is to get hector or an hector up an orifice? Aren't you ignoring the ancient practice of auto eroticism still vilified by unthinking shaggers of any persuasion?

[floo]

Actually, it would appear that he remained celibate, as has been the case with many people throughout history.  Sex and sexuality isn't the be-all and end-all of human life.

You have no idea if that was the case, he might have had a great bonkfest throughout his short life for all you know! Those who claim Jesus was celibate do so because the idea of him having any sort of sex life makes them feel uncomfortable, imo.

[Hope]

There are 5 references to the 'disciple Jesus loved' in the New Testament - all in John's Gospel.

John 13

23 ἦν ἀνακείμενος εἷς ἐκ τῶν μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ κόλπῳ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ, ὃν ἠγάπα ὁ Ἰησοῦς·

John 19

26 Ἰησοῦς οὖν ἰδὼν τὴν μητέρα καὶ τὸν μαθητὴν παρεστῶτα ὃν ἠγάπα λέγει τῇ μητρί· Γύναι, ἴδε ὁ υἱός σου·

John 20

2 τρέχει οὖν καὶ ἔρχεται πρὸς Σίμωνα Πέτρον καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἄλλον μαθητὴν ὃν ἐφίλει ὁ Ἰησοῦς, καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· Ἦραν τὸν κύριον ἐκ τοῦ μνημείου, καὶ οὐκ οἴδαμεν ποῦ ἔθηκαν αὐτόν.

John 21 (2)

7 λέγει οὖν ὁ μαθητὴς ἐκεῖνος ὃν ἠγάπα ὁ Ἰησοῦς τῷ Πέτρῳ· Ὁ κύριός ἐστιν. Σίμων οὖν Πέτρος, ἀκούσας ὅτι ὁ κύριός ἐστιν, τὸν ἐπενδύτην διεζώσατο, ἦν γὰρ γυμνός, καὶ ἔβαλεν ἑαυτὸν εἰς τὴν θάλασσαν·

20 Ἐπιστραφεὶς ὁ Πέτρος βλέπει τὸν μαθητὴν ὃν ἠγάπα ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀκολουθοῦντα, ὃς καὶ ἀνέπεσεν ἐν τῷ δείπνῳ ἐπὶ τὸ στῆθος αὐτοῦ καὶ εἶπεν· Κύριε, τίς ἐστιν ὁ παραδιδούς σε;

Those of you who know their Greek, even modern Greek, will appreciate that the 5 verbs used in these 5 references - "ἠγάπα" (x4) and "ἐφίλει" (x1), are never used in contexts that have any sexual connotation at all.  In other words, the love referred to is that of a parent (ἠγάπα) and of a brother (ἐφίλει).  To use such verb references to suggest anything about a person's sexuality is to make a major error of judgement.

[Hope]

You have no idea if that was the case, he might have had a great bonkfest throughout his short life for all you know! Those who claim Jesus was celibate do so because the idea of him having any sort of sex life makes them feel uncomfortable, imo.

Sorry Floo, but "... hose who claim Jesus was celibate do so because", 1) there is no reference to a wedding between him and anyone else, 2) there is no reference to his loving anyone in an 'eros' way, 3) celibacy was something that was not uncommon in that period [or throughout history for that matter] and 4) on a more general level, sex isn't everyone's 'raison d'etre' (though it may be yours).

[Shaker]

4) on a more general level, sex isn't everyone's 'raison d'etre' (though it may be yours).

Actually, yes, sex is everyone's raison d'etre, literally.

[Hope]

Actually, yes, sex is everyone's raison d'etre, literally.

Sorry, Shaker, it may have been their parents' raison d'etre, but as I'm sure you'll agree there are many people who go a lifetime without having sexual intercourse, and that doesn't diminish their humanity and their reason for being.

[Shaker]

Sorry, Shaker, it may have been their parents' raison d'etre, but as I'm sure you'll agree there are many people who go a lifetime without having sexual intercourse, and that doesn't diminish their humanity

It certainly makes them rather odd and most likely maladapted in some way, which is almost inevitable when people cut themselves off from a component of the greatest source of happiness, contentment and fulfilment that human beings ever know.

and their reason for being.

Sex is their reason for being, however

[floo]

Sorry Floo, but "... hose who claim Jesus was celibate do so because", 1) there is no reference to a wedding between him and anyone else, 2) there is no reference to his loving anyone in an 'eros' way, 3) celibacy was something that was not uncommon in that period [or throughout history for that matter] and 4) on a more general level, sex isn't everyone's 'raison d'etre' (though it may be yours).

Apart from his birth and his precocious visit to the Temple at 12, there is no reference to his life before he started strutting his stuff at 30. Probably because it wasn't considered important.

[Hope]

Apart from his birth and his precocious visit to the Temple at 12, there is no reference to his life before he started strutting his stuff at 30. Probably because it wasn't considered important.

Precisely; it wasn't felt necessary to refer to events that may not have occurred.  By the way, I think that, if he had married, there would have been reference made to the fact - there is reference to the rest of his family.

[Hope]

It certainly makes them rather odd and most likely maladapted in some way, which is almost inevitable when people cut themselves off from a component of the greatest source of happiness, contentment and fulfilment that human beings ever know.

That sounds as if you think that those who choose a life of celibacy are somehow mentally ill or even 'sub-human' in some way.  I think you might want to rethink your thinking.

Sex is their reason for being, however

No, whilst sex is probably the reason for their being (though one can now have children without having sex), sex isn't necessarily their reason for being.

[Shaker]

That sounds as if you think that those who choose a life of celibacy are somehow mentally ill or even 'sub-human' in some way. I think you might want to rethink your thinking.

Not sub-human; that term is entirely of your using.

Just peculiar, which is what I already said.

No, whilst sex is probably the reason for their being (though one can now have children without having sex), sex isn't necessarily their reason for being.

Probably? No probably about it; definitely.

[Rhiannon]

Doesn't the idea of a celibate Jesus just reflect the church's screwed-up ideas about the purity of celibacy and the fact that it hasn't quite shaken off its disgust at sex, whether it is the idea of the uncleanliness of women generally, or the supposedly modern concept of same sex relationships being ok so long as the people in them don't have sex?

[jeremyp]

Are you appealing to selfish gene theory or one where the goal of humanity is to get hector or an hector up an orifice? Aren't you ignoring the ancient practice of auto eroticism still vilified by unthinking shaggers of any persuasion?

No I'm asking Hope a question.

[jeremyp]

Sorry Floo, but "... hose who claim Jesus was celibate do so because", 1) there is no reference to a wedding between him and anyone else, 2) there is no reference to his loving anyone in an 'eros' way, 3) celibacy was something that was not uncommon in that period [or throughout history for that matter] and 4) on a more general level, sex isn't everyone's 'raison d'etre' (though it may be yours).

There's also no reference to Jesus going to the toilet but I bet he did.

With the evidence we have, there is no way to answer the question of whether he was gay or straight or married or celibate.

Some Christians seem to have a burning desire for Jesus to be a celibate straight guy but I think that reflects their hang ups about sex and sexuality more than anything else.

Some non Christians seem to have a burning desire for Jesus to be gay, but I think that's because they know it winds up the Christians.

[floo]

There's also no reference to Jesus going to the toilet but I bet he did.

With the evidence we have, there is no way to answer the question of whether he was gay or straight or married or celibate.

Some Christians seem to have a burning desire for Jesus to be a celibate straight guy but I think that reflects their hang ups about sex and sexuality more than anything else.

Some non Christians seem to have a burning desire for Jesus to be gay, but I think that's because they know it winds up the Christians.

If a person is or was gay it shouldn't wind anyone up unless they are an anti-gay bigot!

[trippymonkey]

Seems SO many here feel the Bible we have now is 100% correct & can be totally relied upon !!!

CAN IT ?!?!!?!?!

[Hope]

Not sub-human; that term is entirely of your using.

And used because your comments smacked of the kind o thing that was said about the disabled until relatively recently.  Try to wriggle out of the comment as much as you like, but your comment is now enshrined.

Probably? No probably about it; definitely.

As I have said, one doesn't require sexual intercourse to create a human being any longer, Shaker.  So, 'probably' is the reality of medical science.

[Hope]

Seems SO many here feel the Bible we have now is 100% correct & can be totally relied upon !!!

CAN IT ?!?!!?!?!

OK, what other bits could have been included?  Are you referring to the other gospels and epistles that were written between the middle of the 2nd century AD and as late as the 5th?

[Shaker]

And used because your comments smacked of the kind o thing that was said about the disabled until relatively recently.  Try to wriggle out of the comment as much as you like, but your comment is now enshrined.

And I'm quite happy for it to be so, as I didn't use a term such as 'sub-human' as you are trying to imply.

As I have said, one doesn't require sexual intercourse to create a human being any longer, Shaker.  So, 'probably' is the reality of medical science.

Which is not only incredibly recent in human history but also extremely rare.