Author Topic: Was Jesus gay?  (Read 76251 times)

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #125 on: December 24, 2015, 02:17:12 PM »
Mentally they were more adult, had seen more death than many of us have seen now
This seems to be what Hope is claiming. I'm asking him to show the evidence for this claim.
Quote
They were expected to be more adult most were doing full time work by 14
This is just a statement of fact, though, not evidence for what Hope is claiming.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32495
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #126 on: December 24, 2015, 02:31:57 PM »
I think it's widely recognised that the start of Chapter 3 was the original beginning of the book.
Is it? I mean, it certainly would fit as the start of the book, but this is the first time I have heard anybody claim that.

Quote
I don't think anybody would have made it up who didn't have experience of what happens on these occasions.

I'm pretty sure that almost everything in Luke is fiction. To claim you wouldn't make it up is denying the power of human creativity.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32495
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #127 on: December 24, 2015, 02:45:15 PM »
Not that I said that it was; rather I said that when one argues in support of what they have assumed or - in Floo's case - claimed, you are party to the misinformation.
I don't think I have argued in support of what Floo claims in terms of 1st century morality.

Quote
Why would God's morality preclude someone from getting married at 12 or 13, 20 centuries ago

If God's morality doesn't preclude somebody getting married at age 12 in the first century, it doesn't preclude somebody getting married at age 12 now because God is unchanging and his morality is absolute. Do you think it's OK for for a 12 year old girl in the 21st century to get married?

Note: I do not believe morality is absolute, so I could consistently hold the position that their age of consent and our age of consent are both OK.

Quote
Again, you show your own lack of critical thinking.
You clearly do not understand what that phrase means. In this case it means not accepting your source uncritically. I examined your source and decided it is likely to be accurate, but I also determined (by reading it) that its scope only covered the last century. It tells us nothing about the trends in puberty before the 19th century.

Furthermore, it claims that puberty has onset at an earlier age more recently. If you are going to extrapolate the report back to the first century, you must assume it was even higher then.

Quote
I was challenged as to my claim that the age of puberty differs markedly over time - full stop.
That is disingenuous: in the context of this thread, we are clearly concerned (or, at least you are) with modern puberty in comparison to the time of Mary.

Quote
Not really, I can think of lots of reports of the same event, but from different forms of the media, that have elements missing depending on the audience.
Tell me why you think all the authors apart from Luke would omit the story.

Quote
Except that, rather than merely being divine, he was human as well.
But following the events alleged at Jesus' birth, Mary would certainly remember that he was the prophesied Messiah. Unless one or both of these stories is fiction.

Quote
The problem is that, when one uses lit.crit. techniques on the Synoptic Gospels, they hang together surprisingly well, both individually and as a trio.
Well it's unfortunate that we are discussing history, not literary criticism then.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

OH MY WORLD!

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7050
  • Just between you me and a monkey sitting on a rock
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #128 on: December 24, 2015, 04:08:02 PM »
No Rose, but not surprised with your spewing lies about Christ. I was born a bastard, Christ was NOT.

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."  Isaiah 7:14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

Red Giant

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2040
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #129 on: December 25, 2015, 03:03:33 AM »
I'm pretty sure that almost everything in Luke is fiction. To claim you wouldn't make it up is denying the power of human creativity.
But the scenarios need to have some plausibility.  If Jesus goes to the beach and finds men mending nets, fine.  If he finds them doing a Highland fling, you're just going to think, that would never happen.


floo

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #130 on: December 27, 2015, 01:52:59 PM »
Not necessarily.

It may be that as knowledge grows so does responsibility.

Therefore, as we learn more, morality changes.

Plus, Mary was having an illegitimate child, which does happen nowadays.

It might be we are more lenient nowadays, with young unmarried mothers.

Years ago they probably saw nothing wrong in them being "decently" married as there was probably more shame attached to it being outside marriage.

It may be they brought the marriage forward as she was already pregnant

In those days the respectable thing to do was marry them off, because Mary was already pregnant.

It's like the saying " it's no good shutting the stable door once the horse has bolted"

Mary was already pregnant.

😀

Jesus was supposedly the bastard child of the deity who couldn't keep it in its pants! If Joseph wasn't the father, and Mary's pregnancy was down to another human male, he deserves many accolades for marrying her and making her respectable. Isn't it wonderful that in the bad old days it was always the poor girl who got the blame if she was pregnant without a ring on her finger, but the owner of the penis got away scot free most of the time!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 02:21:59 PM by Floo »

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #131 on: December 27, 2015, 02:46:50 PM »
Rose
TOTALLY AGREE !!!
 We must NEVER forget.....

Religion is for HUMANKIND NOT for any god !!!!! ;) ;D

Nick

floo

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #132 on: December 27, 2015, 02:55:52 PM »
Surely if a deity does exist it would be above all human faults and failings, and not be as described in the Bible. The authors who created that god gave it all the worst of human attributes, probably in an attempt to make their god bigger and much more scary than the gods of other tribes!

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #133 on: December 27, 2015, 03:22:21 PM »
What an abhorrent OP!

I agree and she already knew it was. I would suggest all believers ignore those threads by Floo which are literally just a wum thread to insult God and Christ in future. Can we have an agreement on that from all believers to ignore the threads that Floo writes which insult God and Christ? If the believer who sees it first write WUM thread we can all ignore. Thanks. We will however to answer the threads she writes which do not insult God and are not there to wind up people.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

OH MY WORLD!

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7050
  • Just between you me and a monkey sitting on a rock
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #134 on: December 27, 2015, 03:26:18 PM »
Rose,
Bastard is another word for your illegitimate, here is some help. And it still is blamed on women, and violence against women still has not ended

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bastard

Listen to the word of this song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hARxUjcQNK0



No rot that floo writes about my Saviour surprises me. It does revolt me though.

floo

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #135 on: December 27, 2015, 03:27:38 PM »
I agree and she already knew it was. I would suggest all believers ignore those threads by Floo which are literally just a wum thread to insult God and Christ in future. Can we have an agreement on that from all believers to ignore the threads that Floo writes which insult God and Christ? If the believer who sees it first write WUM thread we can all ignore. Thanks. We will however to answer the threads she writes which do not insult God and are not there to wind up people.

Only nasty bigots would think the op abhorrent! :o

I make no apology for insulting the deity if it exists, if it is as evil as the Biblical depiction of it is. As for Jesus he was probably decent enough, but by no means perfect.

Sass no one can hold a candle to you where wummery is concerned! ;D

OH MY WORLD!

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7050
  • Just between you me and a monkey sitting on a rock
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #136 on: December 27, 2015, 03:34:24 PM »
floo,
God would see the lie behind the apology so save your breath.

Bubbles

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #137 on: December 27, 2015, 05:38:10 PM »
floo,
God would see the lie behind the apology so save your breath.

I don't think Floo would be required to apologise, because much of what she says comes from her own experiences in life.

A deity would understand that and rise above it, however people who hurt others and gave God a bad name, might find it was them that needed to apologise.


jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32495
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #138 on: December 27, 2015, 07:04:52 PM »

Therefore, as we learn more, morality changes.


I would argue that is completely the way it is. However, Christians tell us morality comes from God and God is eternal and unchanging. If they are correct, morality has not changed since the days we used to force 12 year olds to marry.

Plus, Mary was having an illegitimate child, which does happen nowadays.

Quote
It may be they brought the marriage forward as she was already pregnant

In those days the respectable thing to do was marry them off, because Mary was already pregnant.


It's worth pointing out that nobody knows how old Mary was when the events of the gospels started. The stories we do have are most likely fiction and they don't tell us how old Mary was, in any case.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32495
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #139 on: December 27, 2015, 07:52:41 PM »
But the scenarios need to have some plausibility.
There's a bit in it where Jesus gets executed and comes alive again. I don't think plausibility is Luke's major concern.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

floo

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #140 on: December 28, 2015, 09:25:54 AM »
I don't think Floo would be required to apologise, because much of what she says comes from her own experiences in life.

A deity would understand that and rise above it, however people who hurt others and gave God a bad name, might find it was them that needed to apologise.

A real deity would be nothing like the one in the Bible, it would be above all human faults and failings, imo.

OH MY WORLD!

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7050
  • Just between you me and a monkey sitting on a rock
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #141 on: December 28, 2015, 05:08:47 PM »
Well there's the problem, Rose and Floo dictating how God should, would, and will behave. That's not the god found in scripture nor one I would put my faith in.

And Rose, I don't think God would require nor believe an apology from Floo.

"...People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."   1Samuel 16:7




jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32495
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #142 on: December 28, 2015, 05:19:07 PM »
Well there's the problem, Rose and Floo dictating how God should, would, and will behave. That's not the god found in scripture nor one I would put my faith in.

So you don't like Floo and Rose dictating how God should, could and will behave, but you are quite happy with a person writing 2,000 years ago doing the same. I think you need to start thinking this stuff through more deeply.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Red Giant

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2040
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #143 on: December 29, 2015, 01:15:03 PM »
Hang on.  If Mary was born sinless, how could she lie to everybody about who was the father of her child?

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #144 on: December 30, 2015, 02:55:12 PM »
Hang on.  If Mary was born sinless, how could she lie to everybody about who was the father of her child?

Mary never lied to anyone... How do you think everything came to pass?
Because Mary was married to Joseph he would automatically of took earthly role of Father to Jesus.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

floo

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #145 on: December 30, 2015, 02:57:44 PM »
Mary never lied to anyone... How do you think everything came to pass?
Because Mary was married to Joseph he would automatically of took earthly role of Father to Jesus.

Sass how the heck do you know if Mary told porkies or not? ::)

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #146 on: December 30, 2015, 03:27:58 PM »
I agree and she already knew it was. I would suggest all believers ignore those threads by Floo which are literally just a wum thread to insult God and Christ in future. Can we have an agreement on that from all believers to ignore the threads that Floo writes which insult God and Christ? If the believer who sees it first write WUM thread we can all ignore. Thanks. We will however to answer the threads she writes which do not insult God and are not there to wind up people.

How does anyone insult something that's so very unlikely to be there in the first place, there's no supporting evidence Sass.

Ever tried to insult a brick Sass?

I'll give that a 1 Sass, only one assertion, I'm feeling generous.

ippy

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #147 on: December 30, 2015, 09:17:59 PM »
What does
'automatically of took'
actually mean - grammatically speaking ????

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #148 on: December 30, 2015, 10:30:54 PM »
I wouldn' put my faith in a man made God, which is what you get when Christians spout off about God and make out they are some sort of expert.
And no more would I put my faith in the kind of God that you and Floo seem to want us to put our faith in, especially when what Floo, especially, plots out is so diametrically different to the God that is the bedrock of (to use a comment of your own from elsewhere) such a 'beautiful religion' as Judaism - a God who Christians also follow.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Was Jesus gay?
« Reply #149 on: December 30, 2015, 10:56:47 PM »
A bastard is just someone who's parents weren't married.

If Joseph was the father and he married Mary before the child was born, it would have become legitimate hence the term "he made an honest woman of her"

Before they married though, potentially the baby was illegitimate.
The problem with this argument, Rose, is that we have no idea how long Joseph and Mary had been married before Mary told Joseph that she was pregant; but we do know that they were married.  That is precisely what the term 'betrothed' means in Jews culture.  Unlike our system whereby a coupe get engaged, which isn't legally binding in any way, and then get married months or even years later; the Jewish way was (and remains) to get betrothed (which had a legal standing no less than that of our marriage ceremony) and then for the bridegroom to return to his family home (though in modern life this may only be a token time apart) - be that a single building or a family 'enclosure' with several buildings - and prepare a place for him and his new wife to live as husband and wife (compare what Jesus is reported to have said in John 14: 2 & 3). 

Quote
The fact people believe the father was God doesn't actually change anything.
and nor does the fact that people believe that God wasn't the father prove that he wasn't   ;)

Quote
Mary was given respectability in the eyes of society of the time because Joseph married her. ( not God)
Wrong, Mary had no need to be "given respectability in the eyes of society of the time", because she was already betrothed to Joseph - she was laready legally bound to him - hence the fact that he is reported to have considered 'putting her aside' (a Jewish euphemism for divorce) quietly.

I won't go on correcting your misunderstandings one by one, Rose: suffice it to say that Jesus, if he was only human and therefore Joseph's natural child, wasn't necessarily illegitimate as he may well have been conceived at a point later than their betrothal ceremony.  Furthermore, since 'illegitimacy' now refers to birth, rater than conception, we all know that the two were 'married' when he was born - in Jewish society's way of thinking.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 10:58:36 PM by Hope »
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools