Was Jesus gay?

[Hope]

As Hope notes, we have been through this and should Trentvoyager and his partner have a quick roll in the hay this evening, Hope thinks in terms of sin that that is the equivalent of the Holocaust.

or telling a white lie.  It is only humans who grade wrong-doings.

[Nearly Sane]

or telling a white lie.  It is only humans who grade wrong-doings.

So there you have it folks, in Hope's god's eyes if you lied about the whereabouts of the Frank family to save them,  it is just the same as gassing them

[Hope]

I don't recognise 'sin'; that's an absurdity invented by your religion.

Oddly enough, it is a concept that long predates Christiuanity, Rhi.  Probably Judaism as well.  Whilst they don't use the same word, the concept exists in Hinduism. However,I'll rephrase it - "Well, is rape a 'wrong' in your view?"

[Hope]

So there you have it folks, in Hope's god's eyes if you lied about the whereabouts of the Frank family to save them,  it is just the same as gassing them

Can't remember the full story - its a couple of decades since I last read the material - but I seem to remember the point was that for a long time no-one lied about their whereabouts because the Germans never actually asked anyone!!  No-one volunteered the information up front.

[Rhiannon]

Oddly enough, it is a concept that long predates Christiuanity, Rhi.  Probably Judaism as well.  Whilst they don't use the same word, the concept exists in Hinduism. However,I'll rephrase it - "Well, is rape a 'wrong' in your view?"

Yes. Homosexual acts aren't though. *

Back to you with that one.

* Phrasing due to irritating software filter.

[Hope]

Yes. Homosexual acts aren't though. *

Back to you with that one.

* Phrasing due to irritating software filter.

So you agree that there is a concept that some will call wrong-doing, others will call sin and yet others will call crime.  The issue about 'the right or wrong' of homosexual activities is no more than your opinion.  You have no definitive evidence to support that opinion (and sorry, since law permits a number of things that I believe that we both regard as wrong - such as avoidance of legitimate taxation - you can't invoke that as a source of evidence)

[Nearly Sane]

Can't remember the full story - its a couple of decades since I last read the material - but I seem to remember the point was that for a long time no-one lied about their whereabouts because the Germans never actually asked anyone!!  No-one volunteered the information up front.

It's a hypothetical, not an historical point. Your god thinks lying to save the Franks is equivalent to gassing them.

[Rhiannon]

So you agree that there is a concept that some will call wrong-doing, others will call sin and yet others will call crime.  The issue about 'the right or wrong' of homosexual activities is no more than your opinion.  You have no definitive evidence to support that opinion (and sorry, since law permits a number of things that I believe that we both regard as wrong - such as avoidance of legitimate taxation - you can't invoke that as a source of evidence)

Straight answer, please, Hope.

[Shaker]

So you agree that there is a concept that some will call wrong-doing, others will call sin and yet others will call crime.

Crime and wrong-doing have fairly specific meanings understood by all people in all cultures and societies since the dawn of the human species (and understood - because understood - by extant non-human primates) with the possible exception of a tiny minority of the more severely disturbed psychopaths. 'Sin' is a specifically and explicitly religious term relating to whatever is deemed unacceptable to a god. Disbelieve gods and sin disappears. Wrong-doing remains. Aside from the tiny number of exceptions just mentioned, everybody believes in wrong-doing; you have to be religious to believe in sin. I agree with Sam Harris that in essence morality is the matter of the happiness and unhappiness of sentient creatures, not the appeasement of the arbitrary standards of fictional entities. Shove morality outside of what causes pleasure and pain to sentient beings, stick it far out in some supposed, some assumed other-worldly realm of supernatural entities, make right and wrong about what's approved or disapproved of by some poorly (if that) defined and unevidenced entity called a god, divorce good and bad from this real world and the feeling creatures in it, and you can (spuriously) justify any and every sort of cruelty and wickedness. As the history of religion amply demonstrates.

The issue about 'the right or wrong' of homosexual activities is no more than your opinion. You have no definitive evidence to support that opinion (and sorry, since law permits a number of things that I believe that we both regard as wrong - such as avoidance of legitimate taxation - you can't invoke that as a source of evidence)

I'm quite happy to base my opinion upon the everyday empirical evidence of gay people living good and happy lives and finding their own happiness in their own minority (but permanent minority), very slightly different way to the heterosexual majority (where and when they're free to do so, in societies that prize diversity, liberal open-mindedness and not just mere tolerance but the positive celebration of difference). Changes in law are a consequence of this, not the spur of it. I have the evidence of my senses, evolutionarily-implanted empathy and a reasoning brain. What do you have?

[Rhiannon]

It's a hypothetical, not an historical point. Your god thinks lying to save the Franks is equivalent to gassing them.

Hope, is this understanding of sin just an excuse for your homophobia?

[Aruntraveller]

Hope, is this understanding of sin just an excuse for your homophobia?

I couldn't possibly comment.

[Hope]

It's a hypothetical, not an historical point. Your god thinks lying to save the Franks is equivalent to gassing them.

No, not equivalent.  He doesn't deal in equivalence.  He deals in relationship.  As both Jesus and St Paul point out, there is nothing wrong with ignoring an unjust law.

[Shaker]

I couldn't possibly comment.

But I know you're dying to

[Hope]

Hope, is this understanding of sin just an excuse for your homophobia?

What homophobia?  Regarding 'this understanding of sin', please remember that that is God's understanding.  It doesn't really matter whether an action slightly damages or destroys relationship - in his eyes there is never any situation that can't be rescued and/or repaired.

[Leonard James]

The sdame could be said about just about every document that is written by anyone other than the originator of the ideas involved, which is why proper research into them is so important before using them to make any given point.  In other words, just because your and my parents brought us up in the way that they did (whatever that might have been) it doesn't necessarily mean that they used any given documentation in the way that it had been created/developed.  The same will go for the ways that you and I have brought up children of ours, or they of theirs - unless we, as parents study everything we teach in detail.

I think it is incumbent on parents to teach children what they know to be facts and what they know to be mere beliefs.

[Nearly Sane]

No, not equivalent.  He doesn't deal in equivalence.  He deals in relationship.  As both Jesus and St Paul point out, there is nothing wrong with ignoring an unjust law.

Now you are going against what you said. When I stated

As Hope notes, we have been through this and should Trentvoyager and his partner have a quick roll in the hay this evening, Hope thinks in terms of sin that that is the equivalent of the Holocaust

You then replied

or telling a white lie.  It is only humans who grade wrong-doings.

which both accepts the equivalency and puts the lying to save the Franks as the same as Trent's roll in the hay, and the Holocaust.

[Shaker]

It is only humans who grade wrong-doings.

I suspect that's because most people are naturally and inherently consequentialists, who weigh up the relative rightness or wrongness of an action by its effect - its consequences - upon sentient creatures such as human beings. Anything else is widely seen as histrionic madness (such as Jesus's ridiculous preachment that within one cranium the mere thought of adultery is morally equivalent to actual adultery).

[Rhiannon]

What homophobia?  Regarding 'this understanding of sin', please remember that that is God's understanding.  It doesn't really matter whether an action slightly damages or destroys relationship - in his eyes there is never any situation that can't be rescued and/or repaired.

So the Franks are in heaven and it's remedied...oh no wait a minute. They weren't Christians.

Still, any Christians that were responsible for their murder are ok.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Oh please, try reading the Bible. There will be millions and millions of Christians that will NOT be OK come judgment day. There, feel better now?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt4cPl0vfM0

[Rhiannon]

That's not what Hope says.

[Gordon]

No, not equivalent.  He doesn't deal in equivalence.  He deals in relationship.  As both Jesus and St Paul point out, there is nothing wrong with ignoring an unjust law.

Super - then presumably both would support amendments to laws so as to remove discrimination that can't simply be ignored. Pity then that some of the followers of the former in current times aren't equally magnanimous. 

[OH MY WORLD!]

Rhi ,
A homosexual is on par with you and I, also Hope and Honey Boo Boo.

Gordon,
Amend what laws? God set it out at the beginning. He created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Gordon.

[Shaker]

Gordon,
Amend what laws? God set it out at the beginning. He created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Gordon.

Daft ancient Hebrew mythology. No reason to take it seriously, every reason not to take it seriously, as a picture of the real world as it actually is. Stop being silly, if you're able.

[OH MY WORLD!]

A godless opinion from Shaker, who's only reason for being is to parade his arrogance on the internet with a heavy spray of PooPourri. Imagine where Shaker and his PooPourri could go if he had ambition.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFI_-kJ95vc

[Sassy]

I asked if active homosexuals are on a par with rapists. I'm awaiting an answer.

Give an example that puts any sin on par with each other?
You claimed to be taught and educated in theological matters, did you not.
The truth is theology DOES NOT teach that one sin is on par or even give examples on such a teaching this you know.
It teaches that the wages of sin is death and all have sinned.
It teaches there are sins you can pray for forgiveness you see your brother commit. However not the sins which lead to death the instant death which Homosexuality, Murder and Adultery were all such sins. So yes a par can be found in that they all lead to death. No other par exists as all are separate sins. You supposedly studied so should know that.
So what is the par you suggest which would make them equal to each other outside leading to instant death in the biblical times even up to the time of Christ? Why deliberately ask Hope something you know no Christian could even suggest.
Insincere not to tell the atheists the truth isn't it. Rather misleading them or was you misleading us when you said you had studied theology?