Was Jesus gay?

[Sassy]

So are you going to take that up with Sassy who linked homosexuality to murder.

It was not I who linked it to anything at all - which if you had read the thread for comprehension you would have understood.

I mean she could have linked it to stealing jelly babies - but she didn't she linked it to murder. I expect you to take her to task immediately.

Although I won't hold my breath.

NO ONE LINKED HOMOSEXUALITY TO MURDER AND NO ONE COULD. GIVE AN ACTUAL EXAMPLE THAT IT CAN BE DONE.
So why are you being false and claiming something you could not even do no matter how hard you tried.
NO EVIDENCE... because it does not exist.  The truth that exists in the bible is homosexuality, murder and adultery all lead to instant death the people who did those things paid with the price of their lives.

Now stop trying to make an issue that DOES NOT EXIST and one which shows NO ONE CAN LINK HOMOSEXUALITY WITH MURDER OR ADULTERY AS IF THE SAME.
MAYBE you will shut up now everyone can see the falseness of your claim and how rubbish it really is. You see Christians are fed up of people shouting foul when none exists and none could exist. We are the people being hard done by with false claims by people who themselves cannot even give an example of how such a thing could logically be done let alone conceived.

[Aruntraveller]

Ok Sass Answer me this.

Hope is married, heterosexual and because of this you would not judge him to be a sinner. Is this correct? (you can judge him to be a sinner for all sorts of other reasons but on this matter as I understand the issue you would not consider that a sin.)

I am in a civil partnership with my partner of 37 years - but because it is a homosexual partnership you consider that as a sin on a par with perverts and adulterers? Is that correct?

And because of this you expext me not to react? You expect me to lie down and let you call me a sinner for behaving in exactly the same way as heterosexuals do except for one small insignificant difference?

What a shame Hope, you and others who get so worked up about this issue didn't spend more of your time concentrating on issues that really matter like child poverty, wealth and health inequality, the environment and on and on and on. But you don't get quite the same glow of superiority and self righteousness from those issues as you do from one that is so clearly "wrong" in some book you read once.

However if you had read that book properly, you might want to re-read it and look at the following:

John 8:7

in fact quite a lot of the Christians on here would do well to look at that.

[Aruntraveller]

And talk about contradictory:

However not the sins which lead to death the instant death which Homosexuality, Murder and Adultery were all such sins. So yes a par can be found in that they all lead to death.

NO ONE LINKED HOMOSEXUALITY TO MURDER AND NO ONE COULD.

So Sass is that what you believe, that I should receive instant death as a punishment because of my homosexuality?

[Sassy]

Ok Sass Answer me this.

Hope is married, heterosexual and because of this you would not judge him to be a sinner. Is this correct? (you can judge him to be a sinner for all sorts of other reasons but on this matter as I understand the issue you would not consider that a sin.

Wrong... Hope would still be a sinner regardless of whether he was married or not.
The bible is clear about what it considers sin.

I am in a civil partnership with my partner of 37 years - but because it is a homosexual partnership you consider that as a sin on a par with perverts and adulterers? Is that correct?

No it is not correct.
Now if you were heterosexual and living with a partner of 37 years you would still be living in sin if not married.
There is no example there that puts you being homosexual on par with perverts or adulterers. As I have already explained all are individual sins and none can be compared with each other. But those sins all lead to being put to death in OT if caught in the act of committing. If Hope was heterosexual and married but has sexual relations with another then he commits adultery.
How as I originally asked can you compare/par adultery with homosexuality. You can't just as you cannot put each of them on par/compare with being a thief.

And because of this you ecxpext me not to react? You expect me to lie down and let you call me a sinner for behaving in exactly the same way as heterosexuals do escept for one small insignificant difference?

Again you are asking a question then not waiting for an answer just assuming you have an answer without producing any evidence to support you having a logical reason for what you are stating. NO THERE IS NOTHING YOU HAVE SAID OR SHOWN BY WAY OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR FICTITIOUS REASONING.  Your answer proves again you have no logical evidence to even prove to yourself that such a thing is possible.

What a shame Hope, you and others who get so wroked up about this isseu didn't spend mor eof your time concentratoing on issues that really matter like child poverty, wealth and health inequality, the environment and on and on and on. But you don't get quite the same glow of superiority and self righteousness from those issues as you do from one that is so clearly "wrong" in some boook you read once.

What a shame you are the only one GUILTY of false claims and of pushing onto others your own fictitious beliefs which you cannot prove.  Nothing in the book confirms what you falsely claim.

I shall ask you a question: Can heterosexual and homosexuals commit adultery and murder?
Have they committed adultery and murder?  If a homosexual commits murder are they also guilty of adultery?
If a heterosexual commits murder are they also guilty of adultery? So why pretend you are not intelligent to know that one sin does not make you guilty of another because of sexuality. So in future maybe you can do away with the false accusations against Christian and believers by stop falsely accusing them of something they CANNOT be guilty of doing


Homosexuality, adultery and murder are all separate sins which can be committed. However in the bible it can mean those who commit them can be put to death instantly as the stoning of the woman caught in adultery proved. Does her being stoned for adultery also means she is being stoned for murder or homosexuality? NO! So your false indignation is proved as false as your claim against believers. It is all in your own mind and not true.

However if you had read that book properly you might want to re-read it and look at the following:

John 8:7

in fact quite a lot of the Christians on here would do well to look at that.

You need to remove the forest from your eye and then you may do well to remove the splinter/speck from Christians.

King James Bible
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Your ignorance is that Christ COULD CAST THAT STONE HE HAD NO SIN. But he pointed out that those who were there all had sin who were accusing and wanting to stone her. Proving the fact that all sins are sin and all have sinned different sins. But all need forgiveness and Christ.

So now I have proved yet again you HAVE NO BASIS FOR SUCH FALSE ALLEGATIONS.
You should practice what you try to preach.

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

The difference between you, Hope and I, is that our sins are forgiven. Christ has paid the price.
So we are without sin and could cast the first stone. But we are not judging you, you do that to yourself every time you acknowledge that you know the bible says homosexual relations are a sin. Heterosexual married people who commit adultery or murder are not committing homosexuality. Just as you being homosexual does not make you an adulterer or a murderer.
Now the truth had finally been cleared up. Stop falsely accusing the bible or Christians.

Homosexuality, murder and adultery are all separate sins but all lead to the person being put to death in the OT.
If mentioning them in the same sentence does not mean you are guilty of all of them, then in no way can it make them on par.
That is your own imagination and false beliefs.

[Aruntraveller]

Sass

YOu have failed to answer one very simple question.

Do you consider a married person to be a sinner simply because thay are married and in a relationship?

I gave Hope as an example - but any married person?

The rest of your longwinded post is just a circular argument that goes nowhere.

Can you also answer do you believe I deserve instant death?

JJust give yes or no answers - it's not that difficult a concept.

And lastly - I am of course aware that homosexuality, murder and adultery are different issues. But why do you bracket them together - and in your heart of hearts (you know deep down where I do know there is a caring person) do you really believe that they are on a par where the punishment meted out is death?

[Sassy]

And talk about contradictory:

So Sass is that what you believe, that I should receive instant death as a punishment because of my homosexuality?

Don't twist my WORDS.  I never said any such thing. The same as the par I gave as example for the bible alone was that the three sins all lead to a person being put to death instantly does not support your false claim. Example in post before this.


NOTHING contradictory because unless you have committed adultery; murder as well as being homosexual then there is no par for you is there? Now stop making false allegations and stop whining making ridiculous statements that anyone would put you to death now for being homosexual.

The law was the OT covenant. The New covenant has absolutely nothing to do with the world because Christ#s Kingdom is NOT  OF THIS WORLD. The new Kingdom is within the person and you are outside that KINGDOM. Because Christ died for sinners people who loved truth and love God. It is a kingdom that lives by the word of God within them.

Jeremiah 31:31-34. So we attend to our own failings and building the true kingdom the body of Christ.
Light and darkness have nothing in common and one is not born of the other. Why would you be judged by a true believer?
There is nothing for us to judge because there is one judge and the ruler of this world has already been judged.
So have all who come after Christ. They choose their own life or death. They who commit sin have been judged when the law came into the world through the Covenant with Moses and Israel. When Christ died it was complete.
He became the way for forgiveness. I admit to being a sinner. You do not admit you are doing anything which is a sin.
Because I admit I am a sinner saved by the blood and body of Christ why does that make me responsible for you or what you do? Christians can judge the sin to be wrong but we do not judge the person committing the sin.
It is not for us to condemn anyone for what they say or do. Yes I have corrected  erroneous beliefs perhaps now you would give us the courtesy of stopping your false accusations.

Christ is for those who admit they are sinners and want forgiveness and to know God.
Outside the Kingdom of God is not the believers concern. The NT tells us about Christians living together and correcting each other. It shows we are not in the world. We are not of the world but new creations. If you feel Gods word condemns you but do not believe in God, why should that bother you? As for us, we believe we are sinners of different types of sin forgiven through Christ. Nevertheless why should us being forgiven make us condemn others who have not yet seen the light?
It would be stupid would it not, to condemn others for being what we once were or to think that sins can make us more or less guilty of sin because of their type.

Believers who are true believers are concerned with the Kingdom of Heaven and that is not part of condemning others.
I have never met you Trent. If we met without knowing who each of us are, we would probably get on and like each other very much. Because I would do as I do with everyone. Be concerned with the person who you are not you sexuality or sins.
I was raised without any bias and I really don't care about sexuality.  I treat all the same and love them for who they are not what sins they might or might not have committed. I am not your judge or anyone elses. The bible for me is true.
True that I change my life accordingly not to judge someone elses.

[Sassy]

Sass

YOu have failed to answer one very simple question.

Do you consider a married person to be a sinner simply because thay are married and in a relationship?

I gave Hope as an example - but any married person?

The rest of your longwinded post is just a circular argument that goes nowhere.

Can you also answer do you believe I deserve instant death?

JJust give yes or no answers - it's not that difficult a concept.

And lastly - I am of course aware that homosexuality, murder and adultery are different issues. But why do you bracket them together - and in your heart of hearts (you know deep down where I do know there is a caring person) do you really believe that they are on a par where the punishment meted out is death?

Read my posts and come back to me...

[Hope]

Hope is married, heterosexual and because of this you would not judge him to be a sinner. Is this correct? (you can judge him to be a sinner for all sorts of other reasons but on this matter as I understand the issue you would not consider that a sin.)

Note that - as you say - I am married and heterosexual.  I have not lived with a partner 'as if married' or in some other form of non-marriage relationship.  For millennia, heterosexual marriage has been the norm for societies across the globe. 

I am in a civil partnership with my partner of 37 years - but because it is a homosexual partnership you consider that as a sin on a par with perverts and adulterers? Is that correct?

As I've pointed out before, I consider homosexual relationships to be a sin on a par with other sins.  Note that I don't grade that term in the way that you have.

And because of this you expext me not to react? You expect me to lie down and let you call me a sinner for behaving in exactly the same way as heterosexuals do except for one small insignificant difference?

Sorry, I'd suggest that 'one small insignificant difference' is somewhat of an understatement.  Biologically alone, there are a number of fairly sizeable differences.

What a shame Hope, you and others who get so worked up about this issue didn't spend more of your time concentrating on issues that really matter like child poverty, wealth and health inequality, the environment and on and on and on. But you don't get quite the same glow of superiority and self righteousness from those issues as you do from one that is so clearly "wrong" in some book you read once.

Not sure about you, but probably 99% of my concentration on issues is on those that you refer to above, and more.  The time I spend discussing homosexual relationships is largely restricted to this and one or two other forums where I feel that it right to keep the debate on the issue open.  Sadly, a few years ago I was banned from one forum because I was seen as too pro-gay by the forum owners!!

However if you had read that book properly, you might want to re-read it and look at the following:

John 8:7

in fact quite a lot of the Christians on here would do well to look at that.

It might also be worth looking at the context in which that single, 31 word verse, fits.  Look at the previous verse, for instance, where it explains that the religious leaders were asking these questions in order to trap him - "This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him".  So, rather than suggesting that " ... quite a lot of the Christians on here would do well to look at that", may I suggest that a lot of the posters here, of whatever point of view, " ... would do well to look at that"

[Hope]

Do you consider a married person to be a sinner simply because thay are married and in a relationship?

Perhaps you could provide us with a Biblical reference that indicates that heterosexual marriage is a 'wrong'.  Or any reference from any source.

[Aruntraveller]

Note that I don't grade that term in the way that you have.

I have not graded them.

For millennia, heterosexual marriage has been the norm for societies across the globe. 

And in what way is that a coherent argument for anything?

Not sure about you, but probably 99% of my concentration on issues is on those that you refer to above, and more. 

I'm pleased to hear it.

may I suggest that a lot of the posters here, of whatever point of view, " ... would do well to look at that"

I'm not sure why non-Christians should necessarily follow a Chrisian text - but I do take the point that we are all guilty of judgement at times when we shouldn't. Although some of us much less than others - due to our differing beliefs.

If you care to look at my actual posts rather than how you perceive me - I only ever respond to Christians in a (shall we say - challenging way) on this one issue - as I do believe Sass's and your views and one or two others are detrimental to the well being of gay people (albeit in a very small way) in this country.

Neither you nor she will get a free pass if you mention homosexuality in the same sentence as murderers, adulterers or perverts. Not that I belive in any kind of death sentence for any of those groups but that is perhaps a discussion for another thread.

[Aruntraveller]

Perhaps you could provide us with a Biblical reference that indicates that heterosexual marriage is a 'wrong'.  Or any reference from any source.

What?

I was asking that question of Sassy because she said you were a sinner - I was trying to clarify whether or not she considered you a sinner simply because you are married.

I don't think you are a sinner for that at all. She said it - but I think she was just dodging the question - as her later posts have proved.

[Aruntraveller]

Read my posts and come back to me...

I have and you didn't answer my questions.

Yes or no will suffice to each question.

[Aruntraveller]

But those sins all lead to being put to death in OT if caught in the act of committing.

So again I ask Sass - do you believe the Bible is correct in this instance?

As I say - not a difficult question.

Yes or No will suffice.

[Spud]

TV,

The death penalty for those things (as also for Sabbath-breaking) applied exclusively to Old Covenant Israel. That is, the land of Canaan was given to them but there must be no immorality within it - Israel was given the priestly task of living under what can be called the death-dealing aspect of the Law, to demonstrate God's holiness to the non-Israelite nations. Undergoing circumcision was a sign of this.

[Khatru]

It must be great for believers when they realise that the god they've chosen to grovel to happens to hate the same things that they hate.

[Brownie]

That does happen Khatru and I've witnessed it;  a Bible quotation that reinforces, or appears to reinforce, an existing prejudice.  It doesn't take much insight to see and hear the distaste for a particular person or activity on the face and lips of a 'believer', who spews hate.  However I do not think this is true in the case of Sassy.  I've not known Sass to show personal distaste for anyone, quite the opposite.  I've read and re-read her posts and, frankly, do not understand them.  She must mean something different to what we perceive.  For the life of me I don't know what it is.

OMW, the Lord did create ''Adam and Gordon'', if he hadn't there wouldn't be a percentage of the human race who prefer cohabitation with their own sex to a heterosexual relationship.  It's quite obvious that gay people were born that way. 

In earlier times people didn't understand and rarely talked about such things, even in my lifetime it was considered by most people to be very odd and dangerous.  I remember at school, during a discussion, being told by teachers that homosexuality was a mental illness!  In Biblical times it was just the same, someone who was different to the average was viewed with suspicion.

When I think what gay people have had to go through I feel ashamed.  Thank God that times have changed and are constantly improving.

[Khatru]

That does happen Khatru and I've witnessed it;  a Bible quotation that reinforces, or appears to reinforce, an existing prejudice.  It doesn't take much insight to see and hear the distaste for a particular person or activity on the face and lips of a 'believer', who spews hate.  However I do not think this is true in the case of Sassy.  I've not known Sass to show personal distaste for anyone, quite the opposite.  I've read and re-read her posts and, frankly, do not understand them.  She must mean something different to what we perceive.  For the life of me I don't know what it is.

OMW, the Lord did create ''Adam and Gordon'', if he hadn't there wouldn't be a percentage of the human race who prefer cohabitation with their own sex to a heterosexual relationship.  It's quite obvious that gay people were born that way. 

In earlier times people didn't understand and rarely talked about such things, even in my lifetime it was considered by most people to be very odd and dangerous.  I remember at school, during a discussion, being told by teachers that homosexuality was a mental illness!  In Biblical times it was just the same, someone who was different to the average was viewed with suspicion.

When I think what gay people have had to go through I feel ashamed.  Thank God that times have changed and are constantly improving.

Nicely put.

I sometimes wonder just where in the bible does the supreme cosmic mega being prioritise homosexuality as a sin over adultery.

Adultery is one of the Bible god's big ones - you'll see it listed in his big ten.  However, there's no commandment vetoing homosexual sex.  Of course, adultery is a far greater threat to the institution of marriage than loving gay people who choose to enter into committed relationships.

This serves to demonstrate that Christians who get into gay-bashing while remaining silent on adultery are bigots.

[Bubbles]

Nicely put.

I sometimes wonder just where in the bible does the supreme cosmic mega being prioritise homosexuality as a sin over adultery.

Adultery is one of the Bible god's big ones - you'll see it listed in his big ten.  However, there's no commandment vetoing homosexual sex.  Of course, adultery is a far greater threat to the institution of marriage than loving gay people who choose to enter into committed relationships.

This serves to demonstrate that Christians who get into gay-bashing while remaining silent on adultery are bigots.

 I don't think it does, it does say about men not lying together as with a women.
Perhaps that's more to do with orgies and immoral carrying on. ( perhaps it was that sort of thing that was frowned on, perhaps people did more of that when it was written.)

The other bit seems more about men wanting sex with angels against their will etc.

[Brownie]

What Rose says.  Plus the fact that whoever wrote it all down in the first place would not have understood much about it.  Jesus never mentions homosexuality at all and showed compassion for everyone, even (maybe especially) those who had sinned.  He seemed to understand his fellow man/woman very well and undoubtedly would have had the same attitude towards homosexuals - but as I said, the word wasn't mentioned by him.  Doesn't mean there weren't any gay people though, there have always been.

Homosexuals are no more or less inclined to sin than heterosexuals.  When it comes to love, in the eros sense, all want a committed, caring relationship. 

[Hope]

I sometimes wonder just where in the bible does the supreme cosmic mega being prioritise homosexuality as a sin over adultery.

At about the same points as he prioritises being a woman as a sin over homosexuality - ie nowhere. However, the practise of homosexual relationships seem to be on a par with just about every other sexual sin - be that adultery, fornication, or whatever.

Adultery is one of the Bible god's big ones - you'll see it listed in his big ten.  However, there's no commandment vetoing homosexual sex.

Actually there is at least one passage where the two are referenced in much the same 'breathe' - Leviticus 18: 20-22.

This serves to demonstrate that Christians who get into gay-bashing while remaining silent on adultery are bigots.

I have to say that I have yet to meet a Christian - of whatever stripe - who remains silent on adultery, Khat.  In fact, I've heard more opinions expressed on that topic than on homosexual relationships.

[floo]

At about the same points as he prioritises being a woman as a sin over homosexuality - ie nowhere. However, the practise of homosexual relationships seem to be on a par with just about every other sexual sin - be that adultery, fornication, or whatever.
Actually there is at least one passage where the two are referenced in much the same 'breathe' - Leviticus 18: 20-22.
I have to say that I have yet to meet a Christian - of whatever stripe - who remains silent on adultery, Khat.  In fact, I've heard more opinions expressed on that topic than on homosexual relationships.

Cheating on your partner is WRONG, homosexuality isn't wrong.

[Hope]

I often wonder whether Jesus consciously chose not to challenge the prevailing law against homosexual relationships in much the same way that he consciously chose to challenge some of the other attitudes and laws that related to sexually-related sins - such as the attitude to lust (Matt. 5:27-30), divorce (31-32, 19: 1-12), adultery (John 8: 3-12)

[Hope]

Cheating on your partner is WRONG, homosexuality isn't wrong.

In your opinion.

[Shaker]

In your opinion.

That's the majority opinion - not that that's an argumentum ad populum; it's because most people have sufficient wit to be able to see the harm/damage caused by infidelity (because of the broken promises and the betrayal of trust that it involves) and may well have been on the receiving end of it themselves at some point, and not only the harm that isn't caused by homosexuality, which would be merely a negative, privative thing, but the positive and active happiness it brings to so many people.

[Hope]

That's the majority opinion - not that that's an argumentum ad populum;

Yet it is an opinion that has no evidence to support it.  In other words, its precisely what you don't want to allow it to be - an argumentum ad populum.  Remember that until pretty recently, the understanding of most people was that both were as harmful as each other.

it's because most people have sufficient wit to be able to see the harm/damage caused by infidelity (because of the broken promises and the betrayal of trust that it involves) and may well have been on the receiving end of it themselves at some point, and not only the harm that isn't caused by homosexuality, which would be merely a negative, privative thing, but the positive and active happiness it brings to so many people.

I'd suggest that there are many people who have been on the receiving end of the damage that both can produce.  I realise that over the last 15-25 years there have been a number of studies, many of which have come to the conclusion that children brought up by same-sex parents compare well with those brought up by opposite-sex parents; I would however question the longitudinal validity of such studies.  Comparing a phenomenon that is perhaps 30 years old with one that is centuries old (and has been researched for perhaps a couple of those centuries) is poor science.