Was Jesus Radicalised?

[Shaker]

Bore off somewhere else Vlad.

[Hope]

Although you keep drearily boring on about reality being more than that which is amenable to scientific investigation, I'm sure I'm not the only one to have noticed that each and every time you've been politely asked to back up this claim, you have refused to do so.

Nothing new there at all, of course.

And that is where you are wrong, Shaker.  On more than one occasion, I have noted various aspects of life that folk of your ilk have been unable to explain scientifically - coming up, at best, with the symptoms of the aspect as opposed to an explanation of the core issue.

In other words, as Vlad points out, you are requiring that scientific investigation must be validated by scientific investigation itself. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Bore off somewhere else Vlad.

You can't hack your own medicine Pal.

[Shaker]

And that is where you are wrong, Shaker.  On more than one occasion, I have noted various aspects of life that folk of your ilk have been unable to explain scientifically

So even assuming this to be true - and I recall no such occasions so links would be tremendously helpful. Not that you'll provide them, obviously - it means that something is unexplained, end of story for now, not that your addled speculations and airy-fairy handy-wavy maunderings are correct.

Because that would be a very silly and fallacious way of going on indeed, wouldn't it?

[Shaker]

You can't hack your own medicine Pal.

Just bored shitless by this psychological issue of some sort you have with injecting philosophical naturalism into any and every discussion. If there was a discussion about sprouts you'd crowbar it in there somewhere.

Added to which I prefer to tackle one clueless chump at a time, so as soon as Hope runs away again when he can't substantiate his claims about his worldview, I'll turn to you.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Just bored shitless by this psychological issue of some sort you have with injecting philosophical naturalism into any and every discussion.

Added to which I prefer to tackle one clueless chump at a time, so as soon as Hope runs away again when he can't substantiate his claims about his worldview, I'll turn to you.

Looking forward to it.

[floo]

I think you will find that he got into a great deal more trouble than your 'BIG TIME' would account for.  After all, it appears to have happened in front of the senior Jewish rabbis.

As for whether it was to his credit or not, it depends on whether one believes that challenging authority is a good thing or not.  Clearly you don't.   

Would you have been thrilled if your kid of 12 had disappeared without telling you where he was going, and you have to retrace your steps to find him? I bet you would have given him a telling off and then some. Mine would have been grounded for a good long time!

[Shaker]

Lenient of you - look what happened to Jesus.

[floo]

Lenient of you - look what happened to Jesus.

And clip around the ear too, in all probability!

[jeremyp]

What the author of the blog fails to mention is that the idea of 'dying and rising' wasn't that prevalent within Judaism.  So, to suggest that the gospel writers borrowed, from other sources, something that was foreign to their own way of thinking and that of their fellow Jews, is to stretch the analogy quite thin.

No not really. Syncretism happened back then and 1st century Palestine had been part of the Greek World for three hundred years. It would only be natural for sects to emerge combining Greek and Jewish ideas.

[Red Giant]

Jesus told the disciples of John that the dead were raised.  If they weren't disposed to believe it, he would only have made it seem like he was crazy.

Seems more like that was on the list of expectations that your working magician had to fulfil, and if he hadn't ticked that box, folk would have thought he wasn't much good.

[Sassy]

Did John the Baptiser Radicalise Jesus into his way of teaching about the apocalypse?

Huh!... you drinking?


Get a grip.... how could John the Baptist """radicalise""" Jesus in his way of teaching ANYTHING?

For a start John sent messengers to ask Jesus if he was the one or should they expect another.

How by any stretch of the imagination suggest that John could have had any affect on the teachings of Christ.

You are really taking the mickey...

[Hope]

No not really. Syncretism happened back then and 1st century Palestine had been part of the Greek World for three hundred years. It would only be natural for sects to emerge combining Greek and Jewish ideas.

I quite agree, jeremy, but the Jews also had an understanding of resurrection that had been around for many centuries, but which - rather like the original (spiritual) concept of Messiahship - had gone out of fashion some time before Jesus' day.  Interestingly, it was the syncretistic sects that were most argued against by the early church leaders.

[Hope]

Would you have been thrilled if your kid of 12 had disappeared without telling you where he was going, and you have to retrace your steps to find him? I bet you would have given him a telling off and then some. Mine would have been grounded for a good long time!

Whether or not a parent is 'thrilled' or otherwise by the behaviour of a 12-year old is somewhat different to whether or not the challenge to authority (as was the case here) is acceptable or not.

I am sure that even you, Floo, would have been angry in the first instance - most parents would, but would then - in a different way, and probably at a later date - have probably be pleased with one of your children had they challenged the interpretation of a law in an appropriate way at the age of 12.

[Hope]

Lenient of you - look what happened to Jesus.

A real dressing-down in front of the rabbis he was debating with.  Not sure that 'grounding'was relevant in those days - after all, Jesus would just about be regarded as an adult (hence his being allowed into the Temple precincts in the first place) and he was probably needed in his parents' carpentry business.

I think that is part of the problem with many of your expressions of dismay, Floo (and Shakes); you judge everything by 21st Century Western practice, not that of 1st Century Palestine.

[floo]

Whether or not a parent is 'thrilled' or otherwise by the behaviour of a 12-year old is somewhat different to whether or not the challenge to authority (as was the case here) is acceptable or not.

I am sure that even you, Floo, would have been angry in the first instance - most parents would, but would then - in a different way, and probably at a later date - have probably be pleased with one of your children had they challenged the interpretation of a law in an appropriate way at the age of 12.

I would still not be pleased if my kid of twelve had behaved in such an outrageous way, even if he had right on his side.  I speak as one who has any extremely intelligent grandson, now nearly 14, who challenged his mother at the age of two to explain how she knew Jesus existed as she couldn't see, hear or feel him! Our lad would certainly have given Jesus a run for his money. On the occasions he has consented to go to church with his mother he has interrupted the sermon and challenged the preacher, very politely, on some point they had made with which he didn't agree, YE GODS! As you can imagine he doesn't get taken to church very often. As the boy has Asperger's syndrome he thinks his behaviour is reasonable! Now there's a thought, I wonder if Jesus had Asperger's syndrome too, it appears he was intelligent; a lot of very bright people have Aspergers.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I would still not be pleased if my kid of twelve had behaved in such an outrageous way, even if he had right on his side.  I speak as one who has any extremely intelligent grandson, now nearly 14, who challenged his mother at the age of two to explain how she knew Jesus existed as she couldn't see, hear or feel him! Our lad would certainly have given Jesus a run for his money. On the occasions he has consented to go to church with his mother he has interrupted the sermon and challenged the preacher, very politely, on some point they had made with which he didn't agree, YE GODS! As you can imagine he doesn't get taken to church very often. As the boy has Asperger's syndrome he thinks his behaviour is reasonable! Now there's a thought, I wonder if Jesus had Asperger's syndrome too, it appears he was intelligent; a lot of very bright people have Aspergers.

Asperger's? Come on Floo surely you must have realised that Jesus' problem was that he spent too long on his I Pad.

[floo]

Asperger's? Come on Floo surely you must have realised that Jesus' problem was that he spent too long on his I Pad.

So does my grandson!

[Hope]

I would still not be pleased if my kid of twelve had behaved in such an outrageous way, even if he had right on his side. 

OK, Floo, since you are keen to talk about your own experience/opinion, let's put the age at 16 or 17.  In Jewish culture, even today, a boy becomes an adult at 13, when he has his Bar-Mitzvah (and I believe a girl becomes an adult at the same age).  For a person to be treated as one of the 10 'men' (I believe that some forms of Judaism now say 'people' to include women) that constitutes a quorate synagogue - and therefore a service can be held, they have to be adults as Judaism understands the term.  For Jesus to have been even allowed into the area of the Temple where the rabbis and religious leaders were have required him to be an adult.  Are you still suggesting that he shouldn't have been allowed to 'do his own thing' without telling his parents?

[jeremyp]

For Jesus to have been even allowed into the area of the Temple where the rabbis and religious leaders were have required him to be an adult. 

OK so the story is a fabrication. That makes sense.

[Hope]

OK so the story is a fabrication. That makes sense.

So, you're saying that in 1st Century Palestine a 12 year old boy couldn't have been an adult?  After all, the age definition of the term even here in the West has changed considerably over the centuries.

[floo]

So, you're saying that in 1st Century Palestine a 12 year old boy couldn't have been an adult?  After all, the age definition of the term even here in the West has changed considerably over the centuries.

Oh come on a boy of 12 is NOT an adult, otherwise his parents would not have been so concerned about his disappearance, don't make excuses! Luke 2v 41/52

[jeremyp]

So, you're saying that in 1st Century Palestine a 12 year old boy couldn't have been an adult?  After all, the age definition of the term even here in the West has changed considerably over the centuries.

No, you are. You just went to great pains to point out that a Jewish boy becomes a man at 13.

[Hope]

No, you are. You just went to great pains to point out that a Jewish boy becomes a man at 13.

(Be)Comes - present tense.  I was pointing out that even now the Jewish understanding of adulthood differs greatly from yours and mine.  As I also pointed out, for Jesus to have even been allowed into the area of the Temple where his parents found him, he would have to have been deemed to be an adult.

Its this very kind of lack of information that you and others here seem to have that I was referring to on the 'Was Jesus gay' thread.