What Did Jesus Intend?

[Shaker]

That sounds like fools gold. We see our loved ones die and know we shall follow them. The fact that we moan their parting shows that we are very aware of the reality of death in a deep and profound emotional way that moves our very being.

That doesn't actually contradict anything previously said, though - from the point of view of individual subjective consciousness, the death of others is precisely and entirely and exactly that - the the death of another, not the death of that subjective individual consciousness.

[Jack Knave]

No but most of them agree their writings don't predict the coming of Jesus, it's only the converts to Christianity that do that.

It's like most Christians don't see the coming of Mohammed in the bit about the comforter coming after Jesus in the NT

People twist other people's scripture to suit themselves.  Christians twist Jewish scripture, Muslims twist Christian scripture.

Happens a lot.

I don't need to because I'm not Muslim or Christian ......... I'm free to speculate 

So what do the Jews believe about their saviour, if they have one, and/or what do they say these references to a 'messiah' mean?

[Jack Knave]

That doesn't actually contradict anything previously said, though - from the point of view of individual subjective consciousness, the death of others is precisely and entirely and exactly that - the the death of another, not the death of that subjective individual consciousness.

But we aren't an island, which is what that depends on. We are substantially connected to one another which was what may comment was about, and so we can not avoid but look death in the face whilst we are conscious and aware.

[Jack Knave]

It has occurred to me, whilst reading the comments on this thread, that taking that JC had no plans for a new religion but only wanted to revive the true spirit of Judaism, and that he was crucified next to two robbers, the odds are are that he was falsely accused of a similar crime by the high priests etc. as he was causing too much trouble and becoming too much of a handful for them.

The sudden loss of their inspired leader* the apostles and disciples panicked and ran for it and hid in the 'mountains' (one apparently went to India). Only later did they return and started to pick up the pieces and form their churches, pass their stories around and 'rewrite' history.

* I have seen elsewhere that the word carpenter, for Joseph, could have meant architect and that Jesus could have had a very good education, unlike (I gather) his followers, and hence why he was for one reason very impressive and could run rings round the Pharisees. The other thing we know from history is that revolutions are usually managed and carried out by the 'middle classes' not the workers who only feel the discontent of the times and as such only follow such people of better education. 

Additional : And reading Roses' post below because Jesus didn't bring this world peace and be this world leader in the End of Days, because of his sudden death, it was sublimated into a spiritual actualization. And we have seen from those predicting the end times etc. that when it doesn't happen they tend to make rash explanations and double their effects. 

[Jack Knave]

The messiah was a man who they believe will come one day to usher in world peace

What he isn't is a divine saviour, that's purely Christian.



In Judaism there isn't a concept of being saved, or the alternative of being thrown into a lake of fire. The concept of original sin is missing as well.

Messiah means anointed and was a human leader, rather than a divine person.

Christianity added all the nasty concepts, like hell and eternal damnation and the idea man is inherently evil.

Judaism seems to believe man was created in Gods image and had the capacity for both good and evil.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/worth.html

Whereas Christianity leans heavily on the man is inherently bad side, which loads people up with guilt.

And to add to this that the Jews also have no heaven, the focus is totally Earthly.

[Shaker]

And to add to this that the Jews also have no heaven, the focus is totally Earthly.

You're sort of right, almost nearly not quite a bit up to a point if you like. Even Orthodox Judaism refers to Olam Ha-Ba, (the world to come), but it's not made explicit as to whether this state is to come after death (on which Jews have historically been a good deal less than firm - see Ecclesiastes amongst other documents) or will be a state of the future Earth/society.

[Hope]

What he isn't is a divine saviour, that's purely Christian.

Sadly, this runs contrary to what is taught in various parts of the Hebrew Scriptures, Rose.  I appreciate that some forms of Judaism - even at the time of Christ - didn't/don't believe in everything that other forms did, but the idea of a Messiah who would usher in world peace was based on the fact that he would be divine - as only God would be in a position to usher in that situation.

The idea of a purely politico-military Messiah, so beloved of the Zealots of Jesus' time, dated from the 5th/4th century BC, but the idea of Messiah as a saviour sent from God had existed long before that - ie from an era when the people o Israel were in charge of their own destiny and therefore without need of a military saviour.  All the references are, furthermore, in a spirtual context.

In Judaism there isn't a concept of being saved, or the alternative of being thrown into a lake of fire. The concept of original sin is missing as well.

Whilst it is true that the concept of original sin is missing, there are plenty of warnings of how those who continue to sin would be cut off from the 'congregation'.  I(nterestingly, the concept of being thrown into the fire is originally a Jewish one - or so many of the Jews I've known over the years have told me.

Messiah means anointed and was a human leader, rather than a divine person.

Whilst it is true that the term was applied to various human agents - including Cyrus - it also had a wider meaning that included more than mere human ideas.

Christianity added all the nasty concepts, like hell and eternal damnation and the idea man is inherently evil.

Actually this is only partially true, Rose.  The concept of Sheol (Hell) predates Christ by several centuries (and is probably the 'precursor' of the Christian idea of purgatory).  Likewise, the idea that mankind is inherently sinful is based on Jewish thinking as well.

Judaism seems to believe man was created in Gods image and had the capacity for both good and evil.

As does Christianity.

[Shaker]

This is an interesting article / Reform Judaism

http://www.reformjudaism.org/blog/2012/05/10/do-jews-believe-afterlife

I like the way they can make up their own minds  rather than being a dogma.

I like that. Latitude of belief. Nobody actually knows so believe whatever you like.

There's no "My way or the fry way" as in Christianity, Judaism's ugly bastard offspring.

[Hope]

I like that. Latitude of belief. Nobody actually knows so believe whatever you like.

There's no "My way or the fry way" as in Christianity, Judaism's ugly bastard offspring.

And what 'My way or the fry way' exists in Christ's teaching, Shakes? 

[Shaker]

And what 'My way or the fry way' exists in Christ's teaching, Shakes?

There's no such thing as Christ's teaching, only what is allegedly reported by others to be Christ's teaching, supposedly.

But within that, John 14:6, amongst other places.

[Shaker]

You make all these claims and refute what I say, but you never back up your arguments Hope.

Not with anything meaningful.

Yes, he's like that. Consistently.

[Leonard James]

Yes, he's like that. Consistently.

Hence his moniker! He hopes he's fooling us. 

[2Corrie]

It may be helpful to step back altogether from concepts of heaven, hell, immortality and get to the root of what the Jewish and Christian religions are all about: a relationship with God.

God created man and in the beginning man and God were in close relationship, 'God walked in the garden in the cool of the day'. God wanted the relationship to be built on trust; he wanted man to trust Him. Whether you take the garden of eden episode as history or allegory the outcome is ultimately the same: man stopped trusting God and the relationship was broken.

Throughout the Jewish scriptures there were people who did trust God, take Abraham for example - Genesis 15:6 is a pivotal scripture demonstrating a restoration of this trust and right relationship "Abram believed the LORD and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."  Abraham's relationship with God was restored because he trusted Him.


It is my belief that all humans have an immortal spirit (and that there will be a resurrection of both the 'righteous' and the 'unrighteous'); an idea that has its roots in the Hebrew scriptures: Daniel 12:2 for instance, and Job 19:25-27.
So we have the idea of people spending an eternity with or without God; in or out of a relationship with Him.


That God wants us to trust Him should not be understated; we see it throughout the scriptures, and now in this Gospel age people the world over are being given that opportunity to put their trust in God. This is what God ultimately wants, our trust; a restored relationship, consider the following in the light of this: "For by grace you have been saved through faith."

[Red Giant]

I'd disagree with the idea that 'Christianity and mainly Paul' turned it into something else: after all, even Jesus had begun to expand the message and the responsibility for sharing it beyond the Jewish people - think of the Roman centurion he praised for having faith; or the way in which he spoke with the woman of Samaria (no self respecting Jew of the time would have been seen dead speaking to a Samaritan, let alone a Samaritan woman); or his dealings with those people who the Jews had rejected, either on the grounds of race or physical or mental ill-health.

That would be Jerusalem's take on it, but Jesus came from Galilee.  Merely growing up with attitudes that are shocking to the narrow-minded doesn't mean you're on a mission to change the world.

[trippymonkey]

Why did God give us 'something' that let us NOT trust Him & then punish us for using it ?!?!?!?!

[Leonard James]

To amuse himself! He knew he would be bored to tears with all the sycophants that trusted him. 

[trippymonkey]

LJ YER know You're right !!!
Can you imagine a place full of sycophantic Christians all over the place. 

I DO often think this was all done as some cosmic game with little or NO consideration for the players ?!?!!?

Nick

[Jack Knave]

Sadly, this runs contrary to what is taught in various parts of the Hebrew Scriptures, Rose.  I appreciate that some forms of Judaism - even at the time of Christ - didn't/don't believe in everything that other forms did, but the idea of a Messiah who would usher in world peace was based on the fact that he would be divine - as only God would be in a position to usher in that situation.

The idea of a purely politico-military Messiah, so beloved of the Zealots of Jesus' time, dated from the 5th/4th century BC, but the idea of Messiah as a saviour sent from God had existed long before that - ie from an era when the people o Israel were in charge of their own destiny and therefore without need of a military saviour.  All the references are, furthermore, in a spirtual context.
Whilst it is true that the concept of original sin is missing, there are plenty of warnings of how those who continue to sin would be cut off from the 'congregation'.  I(nterestingly, the concept of being thrown into the fire is originally a Jewish one - or so many of the Jews I've known over the years have told me.
Whilst it is true that the term was applied to various human agents - including Cyrus - it also had a wider meaning that included more than mere human ideas.
Actually this is only partially true, Rose.  The concept of Sheol (Hell) predates Christ by several centuries (and is probably the 'precursor' of the Christian idea of purgatory).  Likewise, the idea that mankind is inherently sinful is based on Jewish thinking as well.
As does Christianity.

You need to add in there the influence of Greek philosophy, which entered in a substantial way at the time of Alexander the Great, and which brought may of the ideas you mention.

[Jack Knave]

Why did God give us 'something' that let us NOT trust Him & then punish us for using it ?!?!?!?!

But when A & E did take of the fruit God didn't chastised them for not obeying It, It said now man has become like one of us. And becoming "like one of us" means you have to take on the responsibility for "knowing what is right and wrong". And in my view the toil imposed on them is just a symbolic representation of this.

[Leonard James]

LJ YER know You're right !!!
Can you imagine a place full of sycophantic Christians all over the place. 

I DO often think this was all done as some cosmic game with little or NO consideration for the players ?!?!!?

Nick

I don't think it was "done" at all! It's just the way matter behaves when it does its own thing. 

[trippymonkey]

IS this 'own thing' not controlled by God though

[Leonard James]

IS this 'own thing' not controlled by God though

Only if you use the word 'God' to mean that, and accept that we know nothing more about it yet.

[trippymonkey]

I feel God is ultimately responsible for ALL things even if He just 'allows' a thing to happen ?!!??!

[floo]

I feel God is ultimately responsible for ALL things even if He just 'allows' a thing to happen ?!!??!

That doesn't exactly do god any credit if it exists!

[Leonard James]

I feel God is ultimately responsible for ALL things even if He just 'allows' a thing to happen ?!!??!

Fine! But unfortunately the word  "God" is usually used by believers to imply much more knowledge of him than that.

Maybe you would be better using the word "Cause" to avoid the imagined claptrap that is so often assocˇated with "God".