Gideon's Bibles

[ProfessorDavey]

The School starts to mould children's characters the minute the walk into their first day at primary school.

How many mothers have been told by their child that the teacher always  knows more and their mum is wrong?

From that moment the "state" influences how your children learn about the world.

It's not all negative, but little ones start by learning they have to conform to structure of the school day as well as how they behave and think.

Part of teaching is moulding a child's character and way of thinking.

Most teachers probably describe it as giving them life skills in effect to conform to society.

Children rebell of course, when they get a bit older.

Think of this song

It's a sort of subtle conditioning.

Perhaps you approve of the end result, so you don't see it.

It's not just my imagination.

I was always aware of it as a child, people telling me what to think and even how to think.

I was a bit of a non conformist 

Even one of my sons aged 12 dyed his hair green with food dye at school , to be non conformist 

Got sent home he did.         

I think all the kids started doing it then.

Were you never a rebel Prof?

That song is from 1979, some 37 years ago - my schooling was at the same time. I have no idea when yours was.

My kids are currently in school - ages 17, 14 and 8. How schools are today is light years away from how they were in the 1970s.

Schools aways did and still do have norms on behaviour and uniform/appearance that need to be upheld (as is the case when in a profession out in the real world) - that isn't the same are requiring everyone to develop an identikit 'character' by moulding them. That doesn't happen - schools today (or at least the ones I have experience of) are happy for children to develop as individuals with their own unique character and to support that development. Peer pressure - well that's a different matter, but that isn't coming from the school per se, but from other kids.

[jeremyp]

IT makes as much sense or more,  than a faith school to you, not to everyone else.

To other religious people faith schools make more sense. They make more sense to me.

In a school that was truly secular they would be tied into a timetable that was built on something other than their religious needs. Their children subject to influences that went against their religious teachings and community.

Lots of Orthodox Jews have two kitchens and two sets of utensils one for meat and one for dairy. The meat has separate fridges etc.

A Jewish school can specifically cater for the needs of those children in accordance with their community.

I don't feel a truly secular school which was trying to cope not just with that, but with the catering for Muslims and Hindus and your vegans.

What would happen is it would devalue each religion by taking shortcuts.

It's a value judgement on each aspect of someone else's religion and deciding what should be followed and what shouldn't.

Which in a way isn't catering for all religions, but degrading all religions towards something else.

I think it would be resisted very strongly, and I can understand why.


It makes more sense to me to keep faith schools to keep diversity in this country and the freedom to bring up children in your own tradition without having someone interfering and telling you what bits you should be following.

It isn't that I believe in any one religion or anything, but that other people have a different interpretation of their religion than I do, because we all make value judgements.

Faith schools give people freedom to do it their way.

I'm acknowledging that the way I see the world is not the only way, and I would like us as a country to keep a certain amount of freedom, so that people can have choices.

All of those arguments could equally well be applied to vegetarian or vegan schools.

I'm not against faith schools, by the way (although I'd rather everybody sent their children to a school where they get to interact with people of other faiths and none), I'm only against state funded faith schools

[jeremyp]

Oh dear!

I really don't think you can all see how dictorial and judgemental you all are.

Leonard: Don't jump out of that window or you will plummet to the ground.

Rose: I can't believe how dictatorial and judgemental you are.

Stating a fact is not dictatorial and judgemental.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm not against faith schools, by the way (although I'd rather everybody sent their children to a school where they get to interact with people of other faiths and none), I'm only against state funded faith schools

Likewise - more than happy for people to set up schools without state funding with a particular religious ethos (providing, like other independent schools they are of suitable basic quality to be registered as schools and retain that registration following inspection). But not for there to be state funding for those schools. If religions think this is important enough and are concerned about parents not being able to afford them, then I would have through the philanthropic and financial clout that churches have would be sufficient to provide bursaries where necessary. Don't forget that most non christian religious organisations have been doing this for years as it is only very recently that state funded non christian faith schools have really taken off.

Or there is another alternative - that kids go to state funded non faith schools and as extracurricular activities engage in specific religious education classes within their relevant faith organisation. Again this is common-place. Not sure if you were on the old BBC site, but if you were you may remember there was a poster called Little Hulton, who was a catholic priest. He and I were both of the same mind that there shouldn't be state funded faith schools (albeit coming from different perspectives. His objection was that the state funding prejudiced the ability of catholic schools to really promulgate catholic education, so he would prefer children to go to ordinary non faith schools and then get additional and specific catholic education, run by and funded by the church to give them much greater control over that curriculum.

[Leonard James]

Leonard: Don't jump out of that window or you will plummet to the ground.

  Fortunately the house is only one storey.

Rose: I can't believe how dictatorial and judgemental you are.

Stating a fact is not dictatorial and judgemental.

Unlike the Christian "God". 

[ProfessorDavey]

Anyway we are drifting off Gideon bibles in school.

You could also argue ( with the social engineering bit) that religions are hoping to get their own bit of it in,  by having religious activities/ handing out bibles  in schools at all.
Especially non religious schools.

That's also a form of social engineering.

I'm surprised no one pointed that out.

It's there to influence and mould young minds after all.

It's just putting the boot on the other foot 

Schools should (and I believe most do) resist any attempt to be the agents for social engineering. That isn't their role. And as in loco parentis guardians of the children while they are at school they should be very wary about allowing third party organisations with a 'social engineering' agenda (and yes that includes evangelical religious organisations) unfettered access to the children. And that would include access via promotional and printed material, not just in person. So a school should be the guardian of balance.

So I have no problem with all sorts of material being available in school - including of course bibles - but their use within a learning context must have an educational value and be subject to balance of opinion. And the best way to ensure this is to use them via the teacher as one of a number of resources.

So in my opinion it would not be appropriate to perhaps talk about the ethics of animal research in a school using only materials from anti-vivisection groups. I see no issue with having that material available as one source, provided other material, with a differing view is available and, through the teacher, the students understand the remit of the organisations producing the material.

So on Gideons bibles - sure have one, or a few available in the school library, or as available resources within lessons. Never allow them to be handed out directly to the children for them to keep.

[ippy]

Proff, I go along with all of your posts on this thread but would like to add that having specifically faith based schools affords faith a lot more credibility to the faiths than is due, they're no more important than if, say we had unionist schools and I'm sure we'd all want the state to subsidise unionist schools.

Blasted religious privilege again, we all pay for their recruitment services and as soon as this is pointed out to the religiosos, oooh we're being persecuted again.

It has to be better if all children mix at school from the beginning, better for the religious, better for the non-religious, better for everybody.

ippy

[Leonard James]

It has to be better if all children mix at school from the beginning, better for the religious, better for the non-religious, better for everybody.

ippy

I couldn't agree more. The sooner humans learn to mix peacefully and indiscriminately, respecting one another's rights, the sooner we will have peace in the world ... and where better to start than with the children.

[ProfessorDavey]

I couldn't agree more. The sooner humans learn to mix peacefully and indiscriminately, respecting one another's rights, the sooner we will have peace in the world ... and where better to start than with the children.

Indeed.

[ProfessorDavey]

Proff, I go along with all of your posts on this thread but would like to add that having specifically faith based schools affords faith a lot more credibility to the faiths than is due, ...

Blasted religious privilege again, we all pay for their recruitment services and as soon as this is pointed out to the religiosos, oooh we're being persecuted again.

Perhaps the most obvious example of a massive misalignment between the influence of organised religion in our schooling and in the real world being the Church of England.

The CofE astonishing runs over 20% of the schools in England - including more than a quarter of primary schools. Yet a few days ago the CofE themselves released their latest set of dire figure on church attendance - only 1.4% of the population attend CofE church on an average Sunday - and even weekly figures (which may often double count) are only 1.8%, ant the very peak of attendance at the major festivals is only about 4% (Christmas) and 2.4% (Easter), recognising that many of those attendees are merely 'traditional' or 'cultural' attendees, or perhaps going along once a year to please elderly parents etc.

And proportions will be lower still for parents with school age children and for the children themselves.

So how can it possible be justified that an organisations with so little active involvement from the public at large is allowed such influence over our schools (paid for of course by the tax payer, not the church).

[ippy]

Perhaps the most obvious example of a massive misalignment between the influence of organised religion in our schooling and in the real world being the Church of England.

The CofE astonishing runs over 20% of the schools in England - including more than a quarter of primary schools. Yet a few days ago the CofE themselves released their latest set of dire figure on church attendance - only 1.4% of the population attend CofE church on an average Sunday - and even weekly figures (which may often double count) are only 1.8%, ant the very peak of attendance at the major festivals is only about 4% (Christmas) and 2.4% (Easter), recognising that many of those attendees are merely 'traditional' or 'cultural' attendees, or perhaps going along once a year to please elderly parents etc.

And proportions will be lower still for parents with school age children and for the children themselves.

So how can it possible be justified that an organisations with so little active involvement from the public at large is allowed such influence over our schools (paid for of course by the tax payer, not the church).

Can't argue with any of that, the fact that non-religious people form as near as dammit 50% of the UK population that firmly places school history out of kilter with the present day and begs the question, the UK still has denominational schools, why?

ippy

[ProfessorDavey]

Can't argue with any of that, the fact that non-religious people form as near as dammit 50% of the UK population that firmly places school history out of kilter with the present day and begs the question, the UK still has denominational schools, why?

ippy

But it isn't merely the notion of the 50% clearly non religious - a far, far greater proportion have no involvement with any organised religion, any religious church, denomination etc. But that's what the schools are - so denominational schools are just that, denominational - they aren't vaguely 'christian' they are CofE, or catholic or methodist etc. Yet the actual members of those denominations, let alone active members are a tiny proportion of the population.

In a way non faith schools are the equivalent of the vaguely christian yet not specifically denominational - give that there remains a requirement for them to have collective worship of a broadly christian nature, their RE curricula will focus very heavily on christianity - they are likely to celebrate in an active manner (nativity play, carol service etc) christian festivals in a manner that they wouldn't for other religious festivals (which they well recognise and learn about, but are less likely to be actively celebrated).

[ippy]

But it isn't merely the notion of the 50% clearly non religious - a far, far greater proportion have no involvement with any organised religion, any religious church, denomination etc. But that's what the schools are - so denominational schools are just that, denominational - they aren't vaguely 'christian' they are CofE, or catholic or methodist etc. Yet the actual members of those denominations, let alone active members are a tiny proportion of the population.

In a way non faith schools are the equivalent of the vaguely christian yet not specifically denominational - give that there remains a requirement for them to have collective worship of a broadly christian nature, their RE curricula will focus very heavily on christianity - they are likely to celebrate in an active manner (nativity play, carol service etc) christian festivals in a manner that they wouldn't for other religious festivals (which they well recognise and learn about, but are less likely to be actively celebrated).

My intent was adding the 50% to your post and again I'm with you, can't think why I wouldn't be, when you're, well really, stating how it is, not an opinion. 

ippy