Author Topic: Lost in the wilderness?  (Read 14802 times)

Leonard James

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2016, 06:38:42 AM »
But the only thing that makes sense of what has happened to them can be found in Christian faith.

On the contrary, Alan, it's just one of the many daft ideas that makes no sense at all.

What has happened to them (and to millions of other people throughout history) is that life is very similar to a card game, or any other game of chance ... and they have been dealt a bad hand. The only thing we can do is square our shoulders and remember that it deals us good ones with about the same frequency. The love and support of friends and family during the bad times is more useful than the promises of an imagined "God".

It is better to face up to the reality of the situation than to hide behind pretty platitudes.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 06:43:44 AM by Leonard James »

SusanDoris

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2016, 06:57:50 AM »
Well said, as always, LJ. And of course AB, like so many millions of people, wil end their lives still believing religious stuff and, in fact, never know the truth, as AB thinks he does.


I'm reading HHGG at the moment and it is interesting to see how quite a bit ahead of his time was Douglas Adams.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2016, 07:26:19 AM »
I'm afraid the bottom line is that we have to try to put these things right ourselves.

No gods, spirits or fairies are going to do anything to help.
I'm afraid the bottom line is that we can make you insensed and pleading foul from Christians by asking the question why we have to put things right when we have our own views on what is right and wrong?

If we think we are right we are never going to change.
If after some thought we find we don't actually know then we are forced to come to a judgment on ourselves and our egos will generally reach the untruthful conclusion that we are all right.

If morality is due to zeitgeist then I'm afraid it is just a question of not getting caught

You strike me as someone who believes that morality is objective. You actually share that with the theists.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2016, 07:43:51 AM »
You can make up anything that purports to make sense, Alan. Indeed, you've just done exactly that. The usual arrogance about Christianity and the implicit but clear snub to the consolations offered by other religious worldviews is duly noted also.

Someone, I forget who for the time being, once said quite rightly that all (petitionary) prayer ultimately boils down to: Dear Lord, please let two and two not be four. If you are unable to see that the sort of narratives we've been discussing of late are precisely and exactly the sort of auto-consoling stories we'd expect people to invent in extremities of the utmost anguish and desperation - potentially the worst emotional torture humans are capable of experiencing, I'd say -, stories to make the terrible truth not quite so terrible or indeed not even true, then there's no reasoning with you.

But we knew that already.

You would have to argue what you say about petitionary prayer because it is just assertion at the moment.

Usual shit approach from anti theists. Criticising but not offering any constructive alternative.......because frankly there isn't a materialist consoling statement.
We are merely sophisticated apes says the materialist Chaplain.......the self is merely an illusion.

At the end of the day only Love is the answer......but I suppose that is an illusion too.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2016, 07:48:49 AM »
Well said, as always, LJ. And of course AB, like so many millions of people, wil end their lives still believing religious stuff and, in fact, never know the truth, as AB thinks he does.


I'm reading HHGG at the moment and it is interesting to see how quite a bit ahead of his time was Douglas Adams.
Im afraid Adams blend of hippy anti corporatism with religious cynicism didn't survive and we are merely left with the religious cynicism.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2016, 08:23:15 AM »
Well said, as always, LJ. And of course AB, like so many millions of people, wil end their lives still believing religious stuff and, in fact, never know the truth, as AB thinks he does.

It's funny though Doris......I don't think I will die thinking you knew something wonderful than I did...........or that Douglas Adams did either.

floo

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2016, 08:36:44 AM »
Next to Becky's hospital bed, one of the many prayer cards is signed:

With love from Mike, Lucinda and Mariana in heaven

I find that very creepy!

Shaker

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2016, 09:41:25 AM »
Criticising but not offering any constructive alternative
Some things deserve criticism, don't they?
Quote
because frankly there isn't a materialist consoling statement.
If it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist, and all the asserting in the world won't make it so. This is the thing that Alan doesn't get.
Quote
We are merely sophisticated apes says the materialist Chaplain.......the self is merely an illusion.

At the end of the day only Love is the answer......but I suppose that is an illusion too.
No - illusions are depictions of things that don't actually exist.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 10:00:10 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2016, 10:12:34 AM »
Some people think love is an illusion caused by chemicals in the brain.
I don't understand. Of course love has a biochemical element - how could it not? I don't see how this makes it not real.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2016, 10:15:32 AM »
Why does everyone want to force their own truths on them and make them even more unhappy?
That sounds to me exactly what Alan does when he confidently asserts that ippy will know "the truth" - that's what Alan believes, of course - "one day."
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2016, 10:24:32 AM »
A caricature view of the advice given across the board by Christians.
Do you watch a lot of Dot Cotton on Eastenders.

What do you think La La the garden fairy divinity would have you say Rhiannon?

No, as has been pointed out Alan offered an example here and my friend was given the usual 'all part of God's perfect plan' platitude.

IME garden fairies are made of plastic and come from gift shops. If I want advice on what to say I consult human beings as they are much more useful.

Leonard James

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2016, 10:39:23 AM »
Of course ´love' exists, just as the hope for an afterlife exists! But they only exist as biochemical reactions in the human brain ... they have no independent existence outside of it.

ippy

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2016, 12:09:31 PM »
One day you will know the truth, ippy

If I ever do, I hope it's accompanied with some sensible kind of back up, unlike the senseless nonsense you keep coming out with that has nothing to back up the plentiful amount of magical, mystical, supernatural stupidity that goes with it.

ippy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2016, 12:25:40 PM »
Plastic?

Mine are made out of some sort of stone, like garden gnomes  ;)

Mine came from a garden centre.

You obviously got the wrong sort 😜

Mine are very useful, can be aimed at the head of any Christian coming out with a platitude.  ;D
Your description of your Garden decoration betrays poor taste Rose.

Rhiannon

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2016, 02:22:03 PM »
Your description of your Garden decoration betrays poor taste Rose.

I take it that's an attempt at humour; you'd sound like such a snob otherwise.

Shaker

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2016, 02:29:15 PM »
Poor taste is better than no taste  ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

wigginhall

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2016, 03:03:59 PM »
I was looking at that poem quoted by AB, and it seems pretty gruesome to me.   

 The dark threads are as needed
 In the Weaver’s skillful hand
 As the threads of gold and silver
 In the pattern He has planned.

The 'dark threads' presumably refer to bad things that happen to us, such as bereavement, but this poem actually says that they are needed.  What does that mean?  I suppose it's the 'pattern He has planned'.  So if parents lose a child, they are supposed to be comforted by this? 

I guess some Christians might be, but hopefully nobody would be as crass and offensive as to say this to non-Christians?  Anyway, Rhiannon has expressed this better than I could. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Shaker

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2016, 03:05:57 PM »
I think to a certain personality type/psychology there's more comfort to be had in the idea that at least the captain is on the bridge even if he's a bit of a bastard rather than the bridge is empty and nobody's driving.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

jeremyp

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2016, 03:13:35 PM »

On a more humorous note, that reminds me of a boo boo I made in my single early twenties  :o

I sent Christmas cards to my colleagues at work, some being married and older men.

I didn't read the message inside, they were just cheap ones, didn't think.

As the day wore on I was getting some funny looks.

They got together and saw the funny side of it, they were lovey dovey ones.  :-[

I was extremely embarrassed when I was told.

I don't think anyone took them home in case the wife read them.

I always read the message now, in case of messages I didn't intend  ;D

What were the messages?
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jeremyp

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2016, 03:24:05 PM »
Rose, I'm not sure how Jeremy's post could have inspired you to write anything 'humorous'.
Be assured that he'd be OK with it.
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jeremyp

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2016, 03:26:49 PM »
No I know, but the connection was that the person may not have read the message in the card or thought about the other implication of what it said.


I'm sure they read the message - it was hand written.

Quote
I don't think the sender meant it in quite the way it comes across.
You are correct of course. I'm sure they honestly thought they were writing words of comfort.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2016, 05:01:29 PM »
I take it that's an attempt at humour; you'd sound like such a snob otherwise.
Of course, I was once the proud owner of a mooning gnome....

Tell me, is there anything like that in the pagan pantheon? Don't Cheeky chappies often get a following in your department?

Rhiannon

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2016, 05:27:42 PM »
Of course, I was once the proud owner of a mooning gnome....

Tell me, is there anything like that in the pagan pantheon? Don't Cheeky chappies often get a following in your department?

Tell me, do you actually have even the faintest idea what you are talking about?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2016, 05:31:04 PM »
Tell me, do you actually have even the faintest idea what you are talking about?
Yeah aren't there cheeky pagan gods....like Loki who was anything but low key. Aren't there any cheeky gods in your pantheon Rhi?

Rhiannon

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Re: Lost in the wilderness?
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2016, 05:58:30 PM »
Yeah aren't there cheeky pagan gods....like Loki who was anything but low key. Aren't there any cheeky gods in your pantheon Rhi?

Which pantheon would that be?