Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..

[wigginhall]

Thanks Ippy, but afgain what I am referring to is the mindset of the Christian to whom the point is being made. If they believe miracles happen it is pointless arguing that such events don't happen otherwise.

I am, I must say, at a bit of a loss as to why so many clever people on here are having trouble understanding my point. I am not arguing that miracles happen, I am saying to someone who believes in them just saying 'humans don't do that' is a non argument.

I just think that people are compressing several stages of an argument into one.   I mean, the full argument is quite complicated, e.g.  1) a miracle is a violation of natural law, willed by a divine intelligence; 2) Jesus is claimed to be able to will such a violation, since he is God; 3) hence, the claim is that he could walk on water, impossible for a normal human; 4) however, nobody has ever demonstrated that such violations happen; and 5) nobody has demonstrated that divine beings exist; 6) therefore, walking on water can't happen.

Well, nobody is going to say all that!

[Ricky Spanish]

Is isaiah regarded as a prophecy text/book?

[Sassy]

I know as much as you! I WAS brought up Christian for 15 years.

And my understanding of its contents are not clouded by a blind attachment to the myths contained in it.

Nah!
You don't even understand what it means to be a real Christian.
Sorry if you were raised a Christian it was obviously by someone who did not know what a Christian is...

[Sassy]

Is isaiah regarded as a prophecy text/book?

Scroll... Well, you asked...

[Leonard James]

Nah!
You don't even understand what it means to be a real Christian.
Sorry if you were raised a Christian it was obviously by someone who did not know what a Christian is...

Sassy, sometime you are a supercilious old goat.

[Owlswing]

Sassy, sometime you are a supercilious old goat.

Ain't that the truth!

I don't know, and don't particularly care, what branch of Christianity Sassay adheres to, but I was brought up by a member of the High Anglican Church, one of who's brothers was a Bishop in that particular branch.

[Khatru]

Nah!
You don't even understand what it means to be a real Christian.
Sorry if you were raised a Christian it was obviously by someone who did not know what a Christian is...

I don't know about Owlswing but I can see that, for you, being a Christian means spending your life trying to convince your choice of god not to burn you after you've died.

[Sassy]

I don't know about Owlswing but I can see that, for you, being a Christian means spending your life trying to convince your choice of god not to burn you after you've died.

Nil points... That is what you wish and choose to think.
I guess the truth is getting to you.  The truth is YHWH is the only God and he chose Isaac not Ishmael.
You just got the wrong son. The wrong covenant and you know I am right.

My God isn't a liar and you would have known if part of the Abrahamic covenant through Isaac. God took care of Ishmael and his descendants, but he never made them the chosen people he made Isaacs descendants the chosen ones.
God sent a saviour and NOTHING can separate us from the love of God and his promises.

First to the Jew and then to the Gentile.. Whom do you believe and say Christ is?

It is sad anyone will be lost... But the truth is that eternal life is knowing the One true God AND Jesus Christ whom the one true God sent...

King James Bible
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Eternal life and avoiding the fire is not something we can do anything to earn. It is freely given by believing in Christ.
As I said and have been proved to be speaking the truth....

Nah!
You don't even understand what it means to be a real Christian.
Sorry if you were raised a Christian it was obviously by someone who did not know what a Christian is...

The above quote is what you replied to. And you proved that I am right.  Our righteousness if from God through Christ Jesus.
He paid the debt for us... May want to brush up on Christianity.

[Khatru]

That is what you wish and choose to think.

Absolutely!  It is what I choose to think.  You should try it someday - it's much better than being told what to think.

I guess the truth is getting to you.  The truth is YHWH is the only God and he chose Isaac not Ishmael.

Truth?  I guess that's your truth and no doubt it differs from the truth of the thousands of other Christian denominations, sects and cults.  Such a shame the word of your god is so confusing. 

My God isn't a liar

No?

Bible prophets are supposed to speak for God. 

Check out Elisha – he’s one of the heroes of the Bible.

“And Elisha said unto him, Go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the LORD hath shewed me that he shall surely die.”

2 Kings 8:10

Here is a deliberate lie. Elisha’s official prophecy was that Ben-hada was going to live even though Elisha knew he would die. That makes him a liar.

Here are some more lies that originate from God:

"Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
1 Kings 22:23

"Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets."
2 Chronicles 18:22

"Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people."
Jeremiah 4:10

"O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived."
Jeremiah 20:7

"And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet."
Ezekiel 14:9

"For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
2 Thessalonians 2:11

God sent a saviour and NOTHING can separate us from the love of God and his promises.

Nothing?  So you're free to worship whatever god you choose and your god will still hold your place in heaven open for you?

Eternal life and avoiding the fire is not something we can do anything to earn. It is freely given by believing in Christ.

You just contradicted yourself.

As I said and have been proved to be speaking the truth

Proven?  Please show me this proof that your god really exists.  In the meantime, I'll await your imminent receipt of the Nobel Peace Prize.

Our righteousness if from God through Christ Jesus.

Righteousness?

There are religious words that refer to real things, like church, bible, scripture, and prayer.  Does righteousness belong there? 

No, it belongs with those words which refer to nothing at all when used in the literal (non-metaphorical) religious sense, like holy, blessed, divine, sacred, soul, god, angel, heaven, hell, salvation, grace, miracle, blasphemy, and sin - religious concepts that refer to imagined qualities and substances that cannot be identified in the world any more than leprechauns. 

The whole concept of the supernatural belongs to this category. Natural refers to everything that exists, including whatever things we may as yet be unaware. 

In any event, what makes your understanding and interpretation of the scriptures more reliable than mine?

I can read them without your confirmation bias. I can read the absurd and laugh, where you would be taking notes and trying to memorise the absurdity.
 
You have no more authority in biblical interpretation than you do in matters such as what spirituality and love are, or in what constitutes a basis for morality, meaning or purpose in life.

[Shaker]

He's good, this Khatru chap. Must keep an eye on him

[Leonard James]

He's good, this Khatru chap. Must keep an eye on him

Indeed! We need somebody to put Sass in her place, and he does it with ease.

[floo]

Khatru appears to know what they are talking about.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Khatru supporters,

Yes the boy is good but he must learn to put his Scripture quotes in bold

Gonnagle.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

He's good, this Khatru chap. Must keep an eye on him

Nah. He's just a cherry picker.

[Leonard James]

Dear Khatru supporters,

Yes the boy is good but he must learn to put his Scripture quotes in bold

Gonnagle.

No thanks! We get more than enough of the from Sass!

[Shaker]

Nah. He's just a cherry picker.

And theists never do that?

[Rhiannon]

And theists never do that?

That's essential for Christianity to work.

[Shaker]

I don't know about Owlswing but I can see that, for you, being a Christian means spending your life trying to convince your choice of god not to burn you after you've died.

I don't know whether this is a caricature or whether it isn't, to be honest. Some Christians - some theists generally - are universalists. But there's no getting away from the fact that the plain meaning of the texts as found in the Gospels have Jesus saying that he is the sole path to God and that nobody gets to the father except via him.

It would help matters enormously if more Christians would be honest as to what they actually believe happens at the point of death to those who haven't accepted Jesus, either because they haven't heard the message in the first place (isolated Amazonian/New Guinea tribes, let's say) or have heard it but don't believe it and actively reject it (which is practically everybody else of another religion or no religion. The embarrassed coughing, shuffling of feet and general shiftiness isn't really a suitable answer. Whether hell counts as a supposedly literal fire (how does that work on immaterial/incorporeal entities) or eternal separation from God (a prospect unlikely to trouble most atheists)*, it's would be a politeness to know.

* Though often heard, I've always felt that this turns God into a sort of divine Jim Bowen off of Bullseye circa 1986 as I grew up with it - anybody old enough to remember the programme will remember that at the end losing contestants were 'treated' to the spectacle of "what you could have won."

[Khatru]

I don't know whether this is a caricature or whether it isn't, to be honest. Some Christians - some theists generally - are universalists. But there's no getting away from the fact that the plain meaning of the texts as found in the Gospels have Jesus saying that he is the sole path to God and that nobody gets to the father except via him.

It would help matters enormously if more Christians would be honest as to what they actually believe happens at the point of death to those who haven't accepted Jesus, either because they haven't heard the message in the first place (isolated Amazonian/New Guinea tribes, let's say) or have heard it but don't believe it and actively reject it (which is practically everybody else of another religion or no religion. The embarrassed coughing, shuffling of feet and general shiftiness isn't really a suitable answer. Whether hell counts as a supposedly literal fire (how does that work on immaterial/incorporeal entities) or eternal separation from God (a prospect unlikely to trouble most atheists)*, it's would be a politeness to know.

* Though often heard, I've always felt that this turns God into a sort of divine Jim Bowen off of Bullseye circa 1986 as I grew up with it - anybody old enough to remember the programme will remember that at the end losing contestants were 'treated' to the spectacle of "what you could have won."

I remember Jim Bowen - Hell, I remember Michael Miles!

I still think that if there is/are some supreme cosmic mega being(s) and assuming that it/they consider us important enough to pass judgement then it will be our deeds that we're judged on.  Not just because we make the right noises on Fridays, Saturdays or Sundays (depending on your choice of Abrahamic belief system).

[Rhiannon]

It's really quite baffling that those Christians who do believe in salvation solely through belief can't see how monstrous that makes their god.

[Hope]

It's really quite baffling that those Christians who do believe in salvation solely through belief can't see how monstrous that makes their god.

Why?  Are you suggesting that every human being should be embraced by the deity, regardless of their wish to be or not?

[Khatru]

Why?  Are you suggesting that every human being should be embraced by the deity, regardless of their wish to be or not?

If I survived my own death (there's a contradiction in terms) to be greeted by a deity (doesn't have to be the Bible god), I would want to be judged on my deeds and how I lived my life.

[Hope]

It would help matters enormously if more Christians would be honest as to what they actually believe happens at the point of death to those who haven't accepted Jesus, either because they haven't heard the message in the first place (isolated Amazonian/New Guinea tribes, let's say) or have heard it but don't believe it and actively reject it (which is practically everybody else of another religion or no religion. The embarrassed coughing, shuffling of feet and general shiftiness isn't really a suitable answer. Whether hell counts as a supposedly literal fire (how does that work on immaterial/incorporeal entities) or eternal separation from God (a prospect unlikely to trouble most atheists)*, it's would be a politeness to know

A pity that you haven't paid attention to the various threads on this topic that there have been over the past couple of years, Shakes.

Whilst it is certainly the case that the Gospels record Jesus' teaching that he is the only way to the Father, it is also the case that Jesus taught that calling him 'Lord' doesn't automatically mean that Jesus will recognise someone as a follower of his.  Furthermore, Jesus also tells his disciples that he has other flocks to tend.

Contrary to your assumption that Christians are suffering from 'embarrased coughing, shuffling of feet and general shiftiness', they are suffering from uncertainty as to exactly what Jesus meant by such teaching.

[Rhiannon]

Why?  Are you suggesting that every human being should be embraced by the deity, regardless of their wish to be or not?

Hasn't it occurred to you that if you really did have a god of unconditional love then few if anyone would want to refuse?

Besides, if we are all god's children then yes, the embrace should be for all, even if some want to refuse it. But that would make your club far less exclusive.

[Rhiannon]

A pity that you haven't paid attention to the various threads on this topic that there have been over the past couple of years, Shakes.

Whilst it is certainly the case that the Gospels record Jesus' teaching that he is the only way to the Father, it is also the case that Jesus taught that calling him 'Lord' doesn't automatically mean that Jesus will recognise someone as a follower of his.  Furthermore, Jesus also tells his disciples that he has other flocks to tend.

Contrary to your assumption that Christians are suffering from 'embarrased coughing, shuffling of feet and general shiftiness', they are suffering from uncertainty as to exactly what Jesus meant by such teaching.

That's your version apparently. Other Christians feel differently. Like that chap we had to ban for his depictions of what happens to the bodies of female atheists when they burn in hell.