Author Topic: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..  (Read 62901 times)

Khatru

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 807
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #225 on: February 23, 2016, 09:34:48 AM »
All this from someone who couldn't even understand the reply he is answering was to FLOO.

Do you have multiple personality disorder where you think you are  Floo....
As if you understood, either.
That is the most laughable...

Calm down dear!  You cannot answer, I understand and think this little show of misplaced sarcasm and rage will cover it.
You really do lack don't you. You do yourself harm with posts like the above.
You write but it is all wind. No truth to it for yourself.

If you want a private conversation with someone you can always pm them. 

What's telling is that you didn't even deny the points I made.

Your silence speaks volumes.

"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

Dorothy Parker

Leonard James

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12443
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #226 on: February 23, 2016, 01:33:19 PM »
If you want a private conversation with someone you can always pm them. 

What's telling is that you didn't even deny the points I made.

Your silence speaks volumes.

Then it's a great pity she doesn't speak volumes all the time.  :)

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7700
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #227 on: February 23, 2016, 03:02:54 PM »


Since most of your posts consist of canned scripture quotes,


...in bold, this cannot be emphasised enough.
Bold = right!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Ricky Spanish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #228 on: February 23, 2016, 09:20:27 PM »
Even if it did have anything to do with a messiah, that's not Jesus.

By the way, Christ is the Greek for messiah. Both mean "anointed one" and that could refer to a Jewish superhero saviour or to an ordinary king (who is anointed at his coronation). King David was a messiah (assuming he existed).

Sorry Jerry, but we both know that Issy 53 is not a messianic text. It doesn't predict anything. In fact, it does the exact opposite and tells the story of a past event. You know an event before Isaiah existed.

It's not my fault that modern christians are too dumbass to understand this..
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #229 on: February 25, 2016, 09:23:13 AM »
If you want a private conversation with someone you can always pm them. 

What's telling is that you didn't even deny the points I made.

Your silence speaks volumes.

You cannot seriously think your reply actually carries any weight or purpose.
Got caught out again and trying to regain face. Sorry, not in this case.
No points to answer as the post was clearly addressed to Floo about Flool
EPIC FAIL on your part. Grow up and stop being a mard ass. Boo Hoo you got caught out again.

Quote
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
210 on: February 21, 2016, 11:27:34 AM

Quote
Quote from: Floo on February 19, 2016, 10:18:20 AM
It is your garbage which is laughable, NOT that of Khatru!
As if you understood, either.
That is the most laughable...


PM not required unless it is FLOO you think should have used the system....



« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 09:28:04 AM by Sassy »
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

floo

  • Guest
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #230 on: February 25, 2016, 10:34:35 AM »
Obviously Sass thinks very highly of me as I am not far from her thoughts! ;D ;D ;D

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #231 on: February 25, 2016, 12:19:30 PM »
Nor she from yours, so it seems floo! 
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Ricky Spanish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #232 on: February 27, 2016, 04:18:40 PM »
But it doesn't exclude the fact that Issiah 53 has fuck all to do with Jesus.

Why do certain idiots keep claiming it does?
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #233 on: February 27, 2016, 08:26:32 PM »
Thanks Ippy, but afgain what I am referring to is the mindset of the Christian to whom the point is being made. If they believe miracles happen it is pointless arguing that such events don't happen otherwise.

I am, I must say, at a bit of a loss as to why so many clever people on here are having trouble understanding my point. I am not arguing that miracles happen, I am saying to someone who believes in them just saying 'humans don't do that' is a non argument.

But surely then if you are arguing against a theist saying 'God doesn't exist' is a pointless argument. So why bother at all?

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5654
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #234 on: February 27, 2016, 08:56:52 PM »
But surely then if you are arguing against a theist saying 'God doesn't exist' is a pointless argument. So why bother at all?

There is no point in just saying 'God doesn't exist' no, which is why I don't say that. What I comment on are the arguments made for the existence of God, the misrepresentation of science and the misrepresentation of atheism. I don't have a belief in God, see no reason to believe in one and think it is highly unlikely one as represented in the Bible exists, but cannot say for certain God doesn't exist.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #235 on: February 27, 2016, 09:05:03 PM »
There is no point in just saying 'God doesn't exist' no, which is why I don't say that. What I comment on are the arguments made for the existence of God, the misrepresentation of science and the misrepresentation of atheism. I don't have a belief in God, see no reason to believe in one and think it is highly unlikely one as represented in the Bible exists, but cannot say for certain God doesn't exist.

I understand your point. But if you are arguing against the case made for God existing why not argue similarly against the case  in favour of Biblical miracles?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63481
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #236 on: February 27, 2016, 10:27:22 PM »
I understand your point. But if you are arguing against the case made for God existing why not argue similarly against the case  in favour of Biblical miracles?

Maeght appears to do exactly that, just pick up Floo on her certainty that they don"t happen. I think Maeght has been clear as to having no belief in God and/or miracles, but just not thinking that an absolute case against has or can be made. That no case has neen.made for either is also their position.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5654
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #237 on: February 27, 2016, 10:31:06 PM »
I understand your point. But if you are arguing against the case made for God existing why not argue similarly against the case  in favour of Biblical miracles?

I don't argue against belief in God, only comment on the evidence which people of belief put forward to support that belief - presenting alternative explanations which seem to me more likely or showing that they are not really evidence at all. I try to get them to accept that they ave a belief and to accept there is no supporting evidence as they often claim there is. if they do that then fine by me. This approach can equally be applied to biblical miracles. This is not the same as just saying miracles can't happen because the those things don't normally happen to someone who recognises they don't normally happen - if they did they wouldn't be considered miracles. It is perfectly reasonable to say 'look, there is no evidence for these miracles' but that is a different approach to the one i am commenting on.

What would you say would be the equivalent to this (the point I am making) regarding the existence of God? If you can suggest that I can say, firstly if I agree with that suggestion and secondly if I have ever used it in an argument.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5654
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #238 on: February 27, 2016, 10:35:04 PM »
Maeght appears to do exactly that, just pick up Floo on her certainty that they don"t happen. I think Maeght has been clear as to having no belief in God and/or miracles, but just not thinking that an absolute case against has or can be made. That no case has neen.made for either is also their position.

I hope I am being clear and consistent, but happy to be picked up if not. I try to avoid claiming certainty and making assertions - possibly due to my scientific training but also possibly due to my nature. Not clear what the last line meant though NS - which 'their'?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63481
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #239 on: February 27, 2016, 11:03:00 PM »
I hope I am being clear and consistent, but happy to be picked up if not. I try to avoid claiming certainty and making assertions - possibly due to my scientific training but also possibly due to my nature. Not clear what the last line meant though NS - which 'their'?

As in 'your' position but since I was talking about you to Rhiannon, I used their to cover that.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5654
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #240 on: February 28, 2016, 08:41:35 AM »
As in 'your' position but since I was talking about you to Rhiannon, I used their to cover that.

Ah, okay.

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7081
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #241 on: May 04, 2016, 12:59:29 PM »
Thrud, What's your opinion about Isaiah 49:1-6, in which the Servant is distinguished from Israel twice?

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #242 on: May 04, 2016, 01:53:51 PM »
Thrud, What's your opinion about Isaiah 49:1-6, in which the Servant is distinguished from Israel twice?

What happened to Holmes at the Richenbach falls, Spud if you don't know what's your opinion?

Both questions are of equal validity; it's not that important about whatever happened to Holmes because it's fiction, how do you know if there would be any difference when applied to your question?

ippy

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #243 on: May 04, 2016, 04:20:45 PM »
Oh, I understand alright.

I understand that I put humanity ahead of religious dogma based on the ramblings of late iron age goat herders.

I understand that the world is big enough for all faiths and atheists.

I understand that true Christians don't think the world is big enough.

I understand that true Christians cannot rest until the whole world bows the knee.

I understand that true Christians say that those who have declined their faith have forfeited their right to exist.
All of those 'understandings' would seem to confirm Sassy's comment, Khat.  The only one that would seem remotely valid is the 2nd.  Just because the "world is big enough for all faiths and atheists", does it mean that all/some/none of these worldviews are true or correct?
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4340
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #244 on: May 04, 2016, 04:30:26 PM »
Thrud, What's your opinion about Isaiah 49:1-6, in which the Servant is distinguished from Israel twice?

And verse 3 definitively says that Israel is the Servant.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

~TW~

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9654
  • home sweet home
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #245 on: May 04, 2016, 04:37:53 PM »
And verse 3 definitively says that Israel is the Servant.

 Yes Israel is the servant,but it is not speaking of the nation and I am not going to point you to the scripture that identifies Israel.You can dangle.

 ~TW~
" Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs/George Burns

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4340
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #246 on: May 04, 2016, 04:40:26 PM »
What happened to Holmes at the Richenbach falls, Spud if you don't know what's your opinion?

Both questions are of equal validity; it's not that important about whatever happened to Holmes because it's fiction, how do you know if there would be any difference when applied to your question?

ippy

Holmes at the Reichenbach falls might have direct relevance to the supposed resurrection of Jesus. I don't know if it has any particular relevance to determining who Isaiah was referring to when he spoke of "The Suffering Servant". The nation of Israel certainly existed (to whom Isaiah is indeed referring) and most of it was led into captivity in Babylon, events which have particular relevance to this particular OT book, whether you think it was written by one scribe or three.

Of course, Isaiah believes he is speaking for his 'God' here, and I know that upsets you. But I don't why every question on these matters has to be reduced to "there's no proof that God exists" (even though I certainly agree with the latter).
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4340
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #247 on: May 04, 2016, 04:43:44 PM »
Yes Israel is the servant,but it is not speaking of the nation and I am not going to point you to the scripture that identifies Israel.You can dangle.

 ~TW~

Well, thank you for re-stating the theme of the thread. Isaiah is chocker-block with scriptures (plural) that identify Israel - I don't need them pointing out.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

~TW~

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9654
  • home sweet home
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #248 on: May 04, 2016, 05:33:38 PM »
Well, thank you for re-stating the theme of the thread. Isaiah is chocker-block with scriptures (plural) that identify Israel - I don't need them pointing out.

 You do you cant understand them.
~TW~
" Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs/George Burns

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #249 on: May 04, 2016, 08:43:43 PM »
Holmes at the Reichenbach falls might have direct relevance to the supposed resurrection of Jesus. I don't know if it has any particular relevance to determining who Isaiah was referring to when he spoke of "The Suffering Servant". The nation of Israel certainly existed (to whom Isaiah is indeed referring) and most of it was led into captivity in Babylon, events which have particular relevance to this particular OT book, whether you think it was written by one scribe or three.

Of course, Isaiah believes he is speaking for his 'God' here, and I know that upsets you. But I don't why every question on these matters has to be reduced to "there's no proof that God exists" (even though I certainly agree with the latter).

No matter what anyone thinks or believes, why should there any more relevence/importance afforded to the supposed thoughts of Isaiah than Holms, unless of course it can be established that Holms was a real person living at the time and place the writer of the story says he was; nothing particually deep about that, or likely.

Assuming the above, why is it any more important to discuss the thoughts of Isaiah, or any other supposed religious figure than, purely as an example, Holmes, unless of course some of the verifiable stuff is found and since that is so unlikely to happen, why should I, as you suggest by the tone of your post, be expected to take this sort of discussion more seriously.

(No spell check on my tablet, so the spelling is the best you're likely to get from this direction).

ippy