Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..

[~TW~]

So floo they made up these lies and then said hey lets die for this crap.

                   ~TW~

[BeRational]

So floo they made up these lies and then said hey lets die for this crap.

                   ~TW~

Someone would have to really believe they were going to die for the right reason.

People make mistakes though. Just because someone is prepared to die for something, does not make that something TRUE.
It simply means, they believe it to be true.
There is a big difference (flat Earth)

[Gordon]

So floo they made up these lies and then said hey lets die for this crap.

                   ~TW~

That early Christians were prepared to die for their cause may say something about them but it doesn't validate their cause, since if that were so then the causes of current day suicide bombers would be equally valid -  wouldn't they?
 

[floo]

That early Christians were prepared to die for their cause may say something about them but it doesn't validate their cause, since if that were so then the causes of current day suicide bombers would be equally valid -  wouldn't they?

Well said.

Just because people really believe something to be true enough to die for their belief doesn't necessarily mean it is true.

The suicide bombers really and truly believe they will end up in paradise if they die for their very nasty version of Islam. Like the rest of us, I bet TW thinks they are deluded. So by the same token surely it is reasonable for non believers to question the veracity of the basis of Christianity as there is no evidence to support it.

[~TW~]

That early Christians were prepared to die for their cause may say something about them but it doesn't validate their cause, since if that were so then the causes of current day suicide bombers would be equally valid -  wouldn't they?

No very very wrong and shows a warped thinking a suicide bomber kills himself,these people were murdered.

    ~TW~

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

No very very wrong and shows a warped thinking a suicide bomber kills himself,these people were murdered.

    ~TW~

They are still prepared to die for a belief though.

Do you agree that being prepared to die for a belief says nothing as to whether that belief is true?

[Gordon]

No very very wrong and shows a warped thinking a suicide bomber kills himself,these people were murdered.

    ~TW~

But in support of a cause, so not so different from someone who is prepared to be killed for a cause - the point being that some accept being killed, or kill themselves, doesn't justify their cause.

[BeRational]

No very very wrong and shows a warped thinking a suicide bomber kills himself,these people were murdered.

    ~TW~

But he was prepared to die for what he thought was true.

You do not agree that what he thought was true, and that's all we are saying about your beliefs.

We just don't think they are true, no matter how strongly you believe them.

To convince me (and I suspect many others) you need reason, evidence and logic. No amount of shouting and saying you really really believe it, or how many others have believed it over time, carries any weight.

They could all be wrong, just like the people that thought the Earth was flat, or the Sun was burning.

[~TW~]

They are still prepared to die for a belief though.

Do you agree that being prepared to die for a belief says nothing as to whether that belief is true?

So are JW's but these people were murdered,a difference.
    ~TW~

[floo]

No very very wrong and shows a warped thinking a suicide bomber kills himself,these people were murdered.

    ~TW~

Some Christian extremists are very warped too, what about Christians who have killed medics who have performed abortions? Then there are the anti-gay bigots whose nastiness knows no bounds. There was one so called 'Christian' who used to post on this forum before they were banned, who took a pride in his anti-gay bigotry, and stated that he would turn a blind eye if a gay was beaten up!

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

So are JW's but these people were murdered,a difference.
    ~TW~

You still have not answered the question.

Do you agree that being prepared to die for a belief (either by killing yourself or someone killing you) says nothing as to whether that belief is true?

[~TW~]

Some Christian extremists are very warped too, what about Christians who have killed medics who have performed abortions? Then there are the anti-gay bigots whose nastiness knows no bounds. There was one so called 'Christian' who used to post on this forum before they were banned, who took a pride in his anti-gay bigotry, and stated that he would turn a blind eye if a gay was beaten up!

Do you have any names or is this  you doing what you do best making things up as you go along.
~TW~

[Shaker]

Do you have any names or is this  you doing what you do best making things up as you go along.
~TW~

I don't know if Floo has any names.

I do though.

Paul Jennings Hill.

Eric Robert Rudolph.

James Kopp.

Scott Roeder.

Michael F. Griffin.

John Salvi.

Shelley Shannon.

Peter James Knight.

Let me guess: you're now going to claim that you haven't been provided with any names, as that seems to be your standard operating procedure.

[BeRational]

Do you have any names or is this  you doing what you do best making things up as you go along.
~TW~

Do you accept, that being prepared to die or kill for some belief, does not mean that belief is true?

This is a Yes or No question.

[~TW~]

I don't know if Floo has any names.

I do though.

Paul Jennings Hill.

Eric Robert Rudolph.

James Kopp.

Scott Roeder.

Michael F. Griffin.

John Salvi.

Shelley Shannon.

Peter James Knight.

Let me guess: you're now going to claim that you haven't been provided with any names, as that seems to be your standard operating procedure.

 Good I will google them and see what comes up.
~TW~

[BeRational]

Good I will google them and see what comes up.
~TW~

You missed this question:-

Do you accept, that being prepared to die or kill for some belief, does not mean that belief is true?

This is a Yes or No question.

[Shaker]

Good I will google them and see what comes up.
~TW~

Excellent. Be sure to let us know how you get on.

[~TW~]

Shaker having taken time to google each person on this list which originated in the first instance from a mentioned by floo of  Christian extremists and did not supply any names{not Surprised}.

 I have looked at this list which you claim are christians and I reject your claim.

  ~TW~

[Shaker]

Shaker having taken time to google each person on this list

In eight minutes?

which originated in the first instance from a mentioned by floo of  Christian extremists and did not supply any names{not Surprised}.

 I have looked at this list which you claim are christians and I reject your claim.

Why's that then?

Paul Jennings Hill was an ordained minister. Are you seriously trying to claim that he wasn't a Christian?

[~TW~]

In eight minutes?Why's that then?

Paul Jennings Hill was an ordained minister. Are you seriously trying to claim that he wasn't a Christian?

 I am glad you mentioned him he seems to be the nearest on your list,you forget to mention he was thrown out of his church and the Army of God really leaves at lot to be desired.

 But at least we are talking 
~TW~

[Brownie]

I looked up some of the names, Shaker.  I certainly wouldn't consider anyone to be a Christian who was prepared to take someone else's life for an ethic.  Even Paul Jennings Hill.  Just because someone is ordained, doesn't make them a Christian.  We only have to look back in history to see that.  A dog collar does not a Christian make.

(I would make one exception, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was prepared to take Hitler's life in order to spare many others.)

[~TW~]

I looked up some of the names, Shaker.  I certainly wouldn't consider anyone to be a Christian who was prepared to take someone else's life for an ethic.  Even Paul Jennings Hill.  Just because someone is ordained, doesn't make them a Christian.  We only have to look back in history to see that.  A dog collar does not a Christian make.

(I would make one exception, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was prepared to take Hitler's life in order to spare many others.)

I just had to log back on to say at last some common sense well done brownie.

 ~TW~

[floo]

It depends on the definition of 'Christian', which is as long as a piece of string. Some people who claim to be Christians are highly unpleasant and you wouldn't trust them any further than you could throw them, if that far, Others are very moderate in their beliefs and are decent people. I know, and have known, both sorts of Christians.

[Stranger]

I certainly wouldn't consider anyone to be a Christian who was prepared to take someone else's life for an ethic.

Why not? I mean, I know you consider it wrong (so do I) but who gets to choose who is a Christian, why, and by what criteria? There are clearly those who would disagree with you.

[Shaker]

I looked up some of the names, Shaker.  I certainly wouldn't consider anyone to be a Christian who was prepared to take someone else's life for an ethic.  Even Paul Jennings Hill.  Just because someone is ordained, doesn't make them a Christian.  We only have to look back in history to see that.  A dog collar does not a Christian make.

And a kilt, sporran and plate of haggis does not a Scotsman make

(I would make one exception, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was prepared to take Hitler's life in order to spare many others.)

With respect, that strikes me as playing fast and loose with your definition - Bonhoeffer is in because he did, or would have done, something you approve of, but the others are out.