Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

(I would make one exception, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was prepared to take Hitler's life in order to spare many others.)

This strikes me as odd.

Clearly as I don't believe in a tri-Omni God then I think bumping him off would have been a sensible approach.

However, if I did believe in the tri-Omni God why would I? I mean if it had been God's will that Hitler had been bumped off then he would have been. Wouldn't he? A world in which a holocaust happened must be more optimal than one in which God would have prevented it.

[~TW~]

This strikes me as odd.

Clearly as I don't believe in a tri-Omni God then I think bumping him off would have been a sensible approach.

However, if I did believe in the tri-Omni God why would I? I mean if it had been God's will that Hitler had been bumped off then he would have been. Wouldn't he? A world in which a holocaust happened must be more optimal than one in which God would have prevented it.

 I am sure many people would have been very happy to bump off Hitler as you put it.But finding the opportunity may have been difficult.

 ~TW~

[floo]

I am sure many people would have been very happy to bump off Hitler as you put it.But finding the opportunity may have been difficult.

 ~TW~

Ah but eventually human ingenuity would could up with a way of bumping it off, if necessary.

[Shaker]

I am sure many people would have been very happy to bump off Hitler as you put it.But finding the opportunity may have been difficult.

 ~TW~

It nearly happened in 1944 (the Stauffenberg bomb). It was only by sheer random chance that Hitler escaped with minor burns.

[~TW~]

It nearly happened in 1944 (the Stauffenberg bomb). It was only by sheer random chance that Hitler escaped with minor burns.

 Not interested Shaker Leave Hitler to the Lord.
~TW~

[Shaker]

You're welcome

[Rhiannon]

This strikes me as odd.

Clearly as I don't believe in a tri-Omni God then I think bumping him off would have been a sensible approach.

However, if I did believe in the tri-Omni God why would I? I mean if it had been God's will that Hitler had been bumped off then he would have been. Wouldn't he? A world in which a holocaust happened must be more optimal than one in which God would have prevented it.

No, many (most?) Christisns believe that people are God's instruments. Whether they believe they are directed by God or simply following the moral teachings of Jesus, few Christians just sit back and let stuff happen. Otherwise there would be no Christian humanitarianism for starters.

So many Christians would argue that Hitler's success in creating the Holocaust arose from the failure of people to act.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

No, many (most?) Christisns believe that people are God's instruments. Whether they believe they are directed by God or simply following the moral teachings of Jesus, few Christians just sit back and let stuff happen. Otherwise there would be no Christian humanitarianism for starters.

So many Christians would argue that Hitler's success in creating the Holocaust arose from the failure of people to act.

I get that. But, for me the problem comes in believing this all to have been set in motion by a perfect tri-Omni God? It's the only world that could exist surely.

[Khatru]

Looks like you have hit the fan.
~TW~

Strange you mentioned fan as Christians in hot countries tend to mutter at the ceiling fan, while those in cooler climes will mutter at the ceiling light. 

I've got a bit of catching up to do but I have enjoyed you obsessing over my absence.

Now then, Isaiah getting it wrong.....

Check out Isaiah 7 and read how the god of the Bible told Isaiah to prophesise that the attack against Ahaz in Judah by Ephraim, Israel and Syria would be a failure.

Isaiah 7....

3 Then said the Lord unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;

4 And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.

5 Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,

6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:

7 Thus saith the Lord God, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.

Well?  Did this come to pass?  Did the attack fail as Isaiah had prophesised?

Well, the attack succeeded, which shows that Isaiah got it wrong and his prophecy failed.....

Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem: but he did not that which was right in the sight of the Lord, like David his father.

2 Chronicles 28:1

5 Wherefore the Lord his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter.

6 For Pekah the son of Remaliah slew in Judah an hundred and twenty thousand in one day, which were all valiant men; because they had forsaken the Lord God of their fathers.

7 And Zichri, a mighty man of Ephraim, slew Maaseiah the king's son, and Azrikam the governor of the house, and Elkanah that was next to the king.

8 And the children of Israel carried away captive of their brethren two hundred thousand, women, sons, and daughters, and took also away much spoil from them, and brought the spoil to Samaria.

2 Chronicles 28:5-8

This failed prophecy is part of the "proof" believers cite that Jesus virgin birth was prophesised.

[~TW~]

Strange you mentioned fan as Christians in hot countries tend to mutter at the ceiling fan, while those in cooler climes will mutter at the ceiling light. 

I've got a bit of catching up to do but I have enjoyed you obsessing over my absence.

Now then, Isaiah getting it wrong.....

Check out Isaiah 7 and read how the god of the Bible told Isaiah to prophesise that the attack against Ahaz in Judah by Ephraim, Israel and Syria would be a failure.

Isaiah 7....

Well?  Did this come to pass?  Did the attack fail as Isaiah had prophesised?

Well, the attack succeeded, which shows that Isaiah got it wrong and his prophecy failed.....

2 Chronicles 28:1

2 Chronicles 28:5-8

This failed prophecy is part of the "proof" believers cite that Jesus virgin birth was prophesised.

 In order that you do not get your knickers in a twist this post is to let you know I have seen it and will answer in due course.

 If only the rest of you could reply in such an honest fashion if only.

 ~TW~

[~TW~]

Strange you mentioned fan as Christians in hot countries tend to mutter at the ceiling fan, while those in cooler climes will mutter at the ceiling light. 

I've got a bit of catching up to do but I have enjoyed you obsessing over my absence.

Now then, Isaiah getting it wrong.....

Check out Isaiah 7 and read how the god of the Bible told Isaiah to prophesise that the attack against Ahaz in Judah by Ephraim, Israel and Syria would be a failure.

Isaiah 7....

Well?  Did this come to pass?  Did the attack fail as Isaiah had prophesised?

Well, the attack succeeded, which shows that Isaiah got it wrong and his prophecy failed.....

2 Chronicles 28:1

2 Chronicles 28:5-8

This failed prophecy is part of the "proof" believers cite that Jesus virgin birth was prophesised.

 Taking a serious look at this I confess I can make no sense of it at all,you need to link me to where you first found this,or you need to rewrite it out.I am perfectly willing  to answer your point when you explain it better.Back to you.
~TW~
Ps have found where you got this from so leave it with me.

[Spud]

Strange you mentioned fan as Christians in hot countries tend to mutter at the ceiling fan, while those in cooler climes will mutter at the ceiling light. 

I've got a bit of catching up to do but I have enjoyed you obsessing over my absence.

Now then, Isaiah getting it wrong.....

Check out Isaiah 7 and read how the god of the Bible told Isaiah to prophesise that the attack against Ahaz in Judah by Ephraim, Israel and Syria would be a failure.

Isaiah 7....

Well?  Did this come to pass?  Did the attack fail as Isaiah had prophesised?

Well, the attack succeeded, which shows that Isaiah got it wrong and his prophecy failed.....

2 Chronicles 28:1

2 Chronicles 28:5-8

This failed prophecy is part of the "proof" believers cite that Jesus virgin birth was prophesised.

Gill's commentary says,

"these two separately came up against Judah, and greatly distressed and afflicted the kingdom, slew many, and carried others captive, 2 Kings 15:37 but afterwards, in the third (w) or fourth (x) year of Ahaz, as it is said, they joined together to besiege Jerusalem, which this refers to, 2 Kings 16:5,"

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/isaiah/7.htm

[Owlswing]

From: ~TW~ on 14-05-2016, 08:56:03

I am sure many people would have been very happy to bump off Hitler as you put it.But finding the opportunity may have been difficult.

 ~TW~

Fom: Shaker on 14-05-2016

It nearly happened in 1944 (the Stauffenberg bomb). It was only by sheer random chance that Hitler escaped with minor burns.

Not interested Shaker Leave Hitler to the Lord.

~TW~

Is it not possible that sheer random chance equals the Lord's intervention?

[Sassy]

In Psalm 139

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Every persons days are in a book before they begin.

Hitler was not just brought down or executed so that his beliefs could be continued by someone else.
God not only defeated his armies and his plans he completely destroyed Hitler. Destroyed him in such a way he would never
rise again. It is a message to all who would dominate the world and society with evil and lies.
In the end God has the final say to mans plans.

Hitler was responsible for his own evil.

[Sebastian Toe]

Hitler was executed?

[jjohnjil]

In Psalm 139

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Every persons days are in a book before they begin.

Hitler was not just brought down or executed so that his beliefs could be continued by someone else.
God not only defeated his armies and his plans he completely destroyed Hitler. Destroyed him in such a way he would never
rise again. It is a message to all who would dominate the world and society with evil and lies.
In the end God has the final say to mans plans.

Hitler was responsible for his own evil.

You tell us it isn't the doctors and surgeons who cure people of life threatening diseases, it's God.  When a paramedic pulls someone out of an accident and gives them heart massage to save their life, it's Goddidit.

But when Hitler ordered 7 million murders, there's no Goddidit involved!  It was all Hitler's fault, only he was responsible for his evil.

Weird! 

[Sassy]

Hitler was executed?

As it says

Hitler was not just brought down or executed

He shot himself in a bunker.
Why? Because he was utterly defeated with no where to run.
So Hitler not just brought down or executed. He was driven and his plans completely destroyed  till he had to take his own life.

To bring him down or just execute him would have made him a martyr to some. His cause would never have ran full circle and his evil would never have been fully realised. However, it run it's course and it brought about his own destruction and disgrace in failure.

A permanent reminder and warning to anyone who believes they can actually get away with such evil that they cannot.

[floo]

In Psalm 139

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Every persons days are in a book before they begin.

Hitler was not just brought down or executed so that his beliefs could be continued by someone else.
God not only defeated his armies and his plans he completely destroyed Hitler. Destroyed him in such a way he would never
rise again. It is a message to all who would dominate the world and society with evil and lies.
In the end God has the final say to mans plans.

Hitler was responsible for his own evil.

As usual assertions without evidence!

[floo]

As it says  He shot himself in a bunker.
Why? Because he was utterly defeated with no where to run.
So Hitler not just brought down or executed. He was driven and his plans completely destroyed  till he had to take his own life.

To bring him down or just execute him would have made him a martyr to some. His cause would never have ran full circle and his evil would never have been fully realised. However, it run it's course and it brought about his own destruction and disgrace in failure.

A permanent reminder and warning to anyone who believes they can actually get away with such evil that they cannot.

Hitler committed suicide, nothing to do with any deity.

[Sassy]

You tell us it isn't the doctors and surgeons who cure people of life threatening diseases, it's God.

God made the way for surgery known and possible. In Genesis 2 :21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
God performed the first surgery and gave the idea man could be put to sleep and not feel the pain.
As he created doctors and gave the first idea for healing medicines through the bible. He gets my vote.
Opps forgot he created mans body and the men who operate.

 

When a paramedic pulls someone out of an accident and gives them heart massage to save their life, it's Goddidit.

God created a heart that could massaged. Mouth to mouth resusitation came from the bible too.

It was these verses that made the person who thought of mouth to mouth resusitation think of the possibility.

34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.

35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

But when Hitler ordered 7 million murders, there's no Goddidit involved!  It was all Hitler's fault, only he was responsible for his evil.

Weird!

What you compare murder to saving life?

Grow up and don't make yourself look so stupid.

[Sassy]

Hitler committed suicide, nothing to do with any deity.

Read two posts before yours...

[floo]

God made the way for surgery known and possible. In Genesis 2 :21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
God performed the first surgery and gave the idea man could be put to sleep and not feel the pain.
As he created doctors and gave the first idea for healing medicines through the bible. He gets my vote.
Opps forgot he created mans body and the men who operate.

 God created a heart that could massaged. Mouth to mouth resusitation came from the bible too.

It was these verses that made the person who thought of mouth to mouth resusitation think of the possibility.

34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.

35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
What you compare murder to saving life?

Grow up and don't make yourself look so stupid.

It is you who needs to grow up and stop making daft assertions without the evidence to back them up!

[jjohnjil]

God made the way for surgery known and possible. In Genesis 2 :21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
God performed the first surgery and gave the idea man could be put to sleep and not feel the pain.
As he created doctors and gave the first idea for healing medicines through the bible. He gets my vote.
Opps forgot he created mans body and the men who operate.

 God created a heart that could massaged. Mouth to mouth resusitation came from the bible too.

It was these verses that made the person who thought of mouth to mouth resusitation think of the possibility.

34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.

35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
What you compare murder to saving life?

Grow up and don't make yourself look so stupid.

I doubt if there's time for me to grow up like you, Sassy - and that's one thing I do thank the lord for!

[Sebastian Toe]

As it says  He shot himself in a bunker.
Why? Because he was utterly defeated with no where to run.
So Hitler not just brought down or executed. He was driven and his plans completely destroyed  till he had to take his own life.

To bring him down or just execute him would have made him a martyr to some. His cause would never have ran full circle and his evil would never have been fully realised. However, it run it's course and it brought about his own destruction and disgrace in failure.

A permanent reminder and warning to anyone who believes they can actually get away with such evil that they cannot.

Mussoloni  was executed. Was that because he wasn't as bad as Adolf?

[Dicky Underpants]

And a kilt, sporran and plate of haggis does not a Scotsman make
With respect, that strikes me as playing fast and loose with your definition - Bonhoeffer is in because he did, or would have done, something you approve of, but the others are out.

Wouldn't like to have been in Bonhoeffer's shoes when he made his decision, though. Many 'Christians' in history have seemed to have been very happy about 'smiting', quite convinced they were on the side of the right. I imagine Herr B agonised, and he paid a high price for his decision, though he might well have got it in the neck in any case.