Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..

[Maeght]

Hitler was defeated by the efforts of humans. I don't see where God came into it but am sure you can explain.

[Khatru]

Gill's commentary says,

"these two separately came up against Judah, and greatly distressed and afflicted the kingdom, slew many, and carried others captive, 2 Kings 15:37 but afterwards, in the third (w) or fourth (x) year of Ahaz, as it is said, they joined together to besiege Jerusalem, which this refers to, 2 Kings 16:5,"

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/isaiah/7.htm

2 Kings tells us that Ahaz was besieged but not overcome because the attack would fail.

However and in clear contradiction, 2 Chronicles Chapter 28 tells us that the attack succeeded and that Ahaz was indeed overcome and delivered into the hands of his enemies.

So there you have it..... the Bible itself tells us that Isaiah's earlier prophecy was wrong.

[Khatru]

No, many (most?) Christisns believe that people are God's instruments. Whether they believe they are directed by God or simply following the moral teachings of Jesus, few Christians just sit back and let stuff happen. Otherwise there would be no Christian humanitarianism for starters.

So many Christians would argue that Hitler's success in creating the Holocaust arose from the failure of people to act.

Yes, it shows the abject failure of using Christianity as a moral compass.

I don't have the demographics to hand but it's probably safe to say that levels of Christianity in 1930s Germany were pretty high.

Hitler, the Christian German clergy and the overwhelmingly Christian German people collectively embodied the failure of Christianity as a moral system - again.  Believers will say what they want, but there was nothing between millions of Jews and genocide.

Well, nothing except the ethics, morality, decency and compassion of a Christian nation, or to put it another way.....nothing at all.

[Khatru]

God made the way for surgery known and possible. In Genesis 2 :21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
God performed the first surgery and gave the idea man could be put to sleep and not feel the pain.
As he created doctors and gave the first idea for healing medicines through the bible. He gets my vote.
Opps forgot he created mans body and the men who operate.

 God created a heart that could massaged. Mouth to mouth resusitation came from the bible too.

It was these verses that made the person who thought of mouth to mouth resusitation think of the possibility.

34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.

35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
What you compare murder to saving life?

Grow up and don't make yourself look so stupid.

Typical fundamental Christian

Always seeking to detract from humanity's successes and credit them to their baby-killing deity.

Strange how they never do this when something bad happens. 

[Sebastian Toe]

God made the way for surgery known and possible. In Genesis 2 :21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
God performed the first surgery and gave the idea man could be put to sleep and not feel the pain.

22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

Was that the first cloning job?

[Sassy]

I doubt if there's time for me to grow up like you, Sassy - and that's one thing I do thank the lord for!

Ignorance is your choice HENCE why would you thank someone you don't believe in?

It is always about choice. You choose not to believe. Whilst I choose to believe and know why I believe.

[Spud]

2 Kings tells us that Ahaz was besieged but not overcome because the attack would fail.

However and in clear contradiction, 2 Chronicles Chapter 28 tells us that the attack succeeded and that Ahaz was indeed overcome and delivered into the hands of his enemies.

So there you have it..... the Bible itself tells us that Isaiah's earlier prophecy was wrong.

Yes, Israel and Syria did technically conquer Judah, but they never succeeded in enjoying the spoils of war (they returned all the plunder and captives because of a guilty conscience) or replacing Ahaz with another king (they could not overpower the capital, Jerusalem). Insofar as Isaiah's prophecy was focused on the 'ruin' of Ahaz (Isaiah 7:5) not occurring, it came true. See   http://www.tektonics.org/TK-IS.html

[BeRational]

Ignorance is your choice HENCE why would you thank someone you don't believe in?

It is always about choice. You choose not to believe. Whilst I choose to believe and know why I believe.

NO NO NO NO NO

You have been told this is a mistake many times, so stop repeating it.

You CANNOT CHOOSE what you believe.

[Dicky Underpants]

Yes, it shows the abject failure of using Christianity as a moral compass.

I don't have the demographics to hand but it's probably safe to say that levels of Christianity in 1930s Germany were pretty high.

Hitler, the Christian German clergy and the overwhelmingly Christian German people collectively embodied the failure of Christianity as a moral system - again.  Believers will say what they want, but there was nothing between millions of Jews and genocide.

Well, nothing except the ethics, morality, decency and compassion of a Christian nation, or to put it another way.....nothing at all.

Though I agree that Christianity failed Germany when it was taken over by Nazism, I think Germany's failure epitomises a European failure in a sense of moral direction. I don't think we should be too complacent. This was the country that produced Beethoven, Kant, Schopenhauer, Brahms and Goethe, none of whom were Christian (and Mozart was only tentatively so - Free-Masonry meant much more to him). Here we have a land so rich in its manifestations of 'culture', irrespective of its Christian heritage, and it still descended into barbarism.

[Sassy]

NO NO NO NO NO

You have been told this is a mistake many times, so stop repeating it.

You CANNOT CHOOSE what you believe.

You do choose what you believe. Adam and Eve the perfect example that you can always choose what you believe.
Because choice comes from having something to choose. Choose life or death.
Adam and Eve chose to listen to the Serpent and not God. They had a choice and so do you. You choose disbelief.
The reason it is a clear choice is you never did what Christ told you to do in order to know if he spoke the truth.
You chose not to do what he told you. So everything is and always will be a choice.

Sometimes you can change the outcome of choice. You may have been rude to a person or treated them appallingly and yet you can choose to apologise and try and make it right with them.
It is all about your personal preference. But some people forget that choice exists for the other person too.
When you apologise they might just tell you where to stick it.

So never be shocked that choice is a reality. People are in prison because of wrong choices.

[Khatru]

Though I agree that Christianity failed Germany when it was taken over by Nazism, I think Germany's failure epitomises a European failure in a sense of moral direction. I don't think we should be too complacent. This was the country that produced Beethoven, Kant, Schopenhauer, Brahms and Goethe, none of whom were Christian (and Mozart was only tentatively so - Free-Masonry meant much more to him). Here we have a land so rich in its manifestations of 'culture', irrespective of its Christian heritage, and it still descended into barbarism.

I agree, it's just that Christians descibe their ju-ju as morally superior to everything else.  ALso, the percentage of Christians in the German population would have far exceeded the number of Goetheians, Nietzscheans, etc.

[Khatru]

Yes, Israel and Syria did technically conquer Judah, but they never succeeded in enjoying the spoils of war (they returned all the plunder and captives because of a guilty conscience) or replacing Ahaz with another king (they could not overpower the capital, Jerusalem). Insofar as Isaiah's prophecy was focused on the 'ruin' of Ahaz (Isaiah 7:5) not occurring, it came true. See   http://www.tektonics.org/TK-IS.html

Whoops!  Nearly missed this.

OK, if that's the interpretation of "overcome" then so be it.

Like most of these "prophecies" it seems to be a vague generality sometimes reliant on semantics.

[Ricky Spanish]

I was just reading Issy 53 again, looking for where it claimed this suffering servant was a messiah, still couldn't find it.

Where in this passage does it say the servant was the messiah?

[Brownie]

It doesn't say so precisely, Ricky.  The passage has long been interpreted that way.  I googled and came up with several sites, including one Jewish one, that give more details (I'm reluctant to post any links, people can look it up for themselves).

You may well see a different interpretation.

[NicholasMarks]

It doesn't say so precisely, Ricky.  The passage has long been interpreted that way.  I googled and came up with several sites, including one Jewish one, that give more details (I'm reluctant to post any links, people can look it up for themselves).

You may well see a different interpretation.

I've just read these chapters again, Isaiah 52 and 53. It is wonderful reading. Here, it seems to me, Almighty God talks in the past tense concerning the release of Jews from Egyptian oppression then scoots to the future...our time, now, and uses Jesus as our saviour from our past...as we should follow Jesus now. It's wonderful reading and displays one thing above any other which is that Almighty God has always been preparing for the time when all who want his salvation will be led out of evil oppression and receive it...using similar methods that the Jews were led out of their captivity...using spiritual intelligence rather than man's fleshly knowledge which can't see much further than greed, war and carnal thinking.

[Ricky Spanish]

Whaaaat?

Sparky, welcome back. I think!

Brownie.. You would be VERY hard pressed to find any messiah references in Issy 53 because they are none, not one, zilch, nada.

11-12 gives you the biggest clue as to who the suffering servent was/is, and it ain't no messiah "figure".

[NicholasMarks]

Whaaaat?

Sparky, welcome back. I think!

Brownie.. You would be VERY hard pressed to find any messiah references in Issy 53 because they are none, not one, zilch, nada.

11-12 gives you the biggest clue as to who the suffering servent was/is, and it ain't no messiah "figure".

Thanks for your greeting Ricky...even if guarded...I would advise anyone to be little guarded in this day and age.

I personally see Jesus in those chapters of Isaiah. Almighty God talks about a person carrying the burden of all transgression and this is Jesus...the recognised Messiah for all time. Any other who might carry a similar role will do it with Jesus as his spiritual leader so it will all come back to Jesus just as everything connected to Jesus' accurate teaching all comes back to Almighty God. The pattern of oppression always carries similar techniques and the pattern of repair, resurrection, and the lifting out of oppression carries similar counter-techniques and whether past, present, or future, Jesus, our Messiah, has stamped his authority upon them.

[Brownie]

I too see Jesus in those passages.

[floo]

The Bible can be interpreted any way you want it to be, imo. If Jesus was the promised Messiah it is strange so few Jews regarded him as such, it doesn't appear his own family did either!

[Anchorman]

I too see Jesus in those passages.

Agreed.
One of many theophanies in the Old Testament.

[Sassy]

Thanks for your greeting Ricky...even if guarded...I would advise anyone to be little guarded in this day and age.

I personally see Jesus in those chapters of Isaiah. Almighty God talks about a person carrying the burden of all transgression and this is Jesus...the recognised Messiah for all time. Any other who might carry a similar role will do it with Jesus as his spiritual leader so it will all come back to Jesus just as everything connected to Jesus' accurate teaching all comes back to Almighty God. The pattern of oppression always carries similar techniques and the pattern of repair, resurrection, and the lifting out of oppression carries similar counter-techniques and whether past, present, or future, Jesus, our Messiah, has stamped his authority upon them.

Ignore Ricky Spanish, he is just jealous because he cannot fathom the truth about Christ or the beliefs of those messianic Jews who do believe Isaiah 53 relates to Christ.

[floo]

Ignore Ricky Spanish, he is just jealous because he cannot fathom the truth about Christ or the beliefs of those messianic Jews who do believe Isaiah 53 relates to Christ.

Judging by some of the garbage you spout, that is a pot and kettle statement!

[Anchorman]

Not only that, floo, many Messianic Jews espouse the Trinity - which probably makes them heretics in Sas's view.......

[floo]

Not only that, floo, many Messianic Jews espouse the Trinity - which probably makes them heretics in Sas's view.......

Everyone, Christian or non believer, who doesn't see it in the way Sass does, is a heretic!

The time to worry is if Sass agrees with you!

[Sassy]

Not only that, floo, many Messianic Jews espouse the Trinity - which probably makes them heretics in Sas's view.......

What a load of bunkum... Show me where Christ or the Apostles taught that you are saved by believing in the trinity or even just God.

You see the fact you espouse such heretic teachings show you how far you have fallen from the truth.
God in three persons NOT GOD IS THREE PERSONS.
Why do you think the first commandment states? Why can a person be forgiven blasphemy against God and Christ BUT NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT? So often you ignore the truth that is taught in ACTS 10 about belief in who Christ is.

Christ says :-Matthew 7:21-23King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


You break the first commandment if you love Christ more than God and you show you do not love Christ.

King James Bible
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Even the Apostles preached Christ crucified and risen.  How can you worship Christ as God? When Christ clearly tells you.

King James Bible
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus made the true God known to us. Because Jesus had the nature of God.
He did what God wanted him to do to reveal God to us.

So make all the quips you want but the grace of God is not given to those who believe Christ is God.
Rather true grace is for those who know that eternal life is knowing the ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom the ONLY TRUE GOD SENT. 

I know like so many you cannot answer and you are more feared of mans judgement than Gods. Whilst I fear God more than man and truth is given from God. NOT FROM MAN.