Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..

[Anchorman]

Hmmmm; Bunkum, Sass? Well, in your eyes, possibly. Not in the eyes of my friend - an elder in the Jirk in Glasgow - and a Messanic Jew. Or, for that matter, in the eyes of a few Anglicans who are also Messianic Jews, confessing Christ as their Lord an Saviour, and God Incarnate - as per normal mainstream Christian doctrine.

[floo]

What a load of bunkum... Show me where Christ or the Apostles taught that you are saved by believing in the trinity or even just God.

You see the fact you espouse such heretic teachings show you how far you have fallen from the truth.
God in three persons NOT GOD IS THREE PERSONS.
Why do you think the first commandment states? Why can a person be forgiven blasphemy against God and Christ BUT NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT? So often you ignore the truth that is taught in ACTS 10 about belief in who Christ is.

Christ says :-Matthew 7:21-23King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


You break the first commandment if you love Christ more than God and you show you do not love Christ.

King James Bible
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Even the Apostles preached Christ crucified and risen.  How can you worship Christ as God? When Christ clearly tells you.

King James Bible
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus made the true God known to us. Because Jesus had the nature of God.
He did what God wanted him to do to reveal God to us.

So make all the quips you want but the grace of God is not given to those who believe Christ is God.
Rather true grace is for those who know that eternal life is knowing the ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom the ONLY TRUE GOD SENT. 

I know like so many you cannot answer and you are more feared of mans judgement than Gods. Whilst I fear God more than man and truth is given from God. NOT FROM MAN.

When you said, 'what a load of bunkum', I think you must have been referring to your post!

[Anchorman]

Sass, we've been through this. Every mainstream Christian denomination - from Orthodox through RCC, Anglican through Presbyterian, Methodist to independent evangelical confesses the Triune God. So: they - we -are all wrong, and you are right?

[floo]

Sass, we've been through this. Every mainstream Christian denomination - from Orthodox through RCC, Anglican through Presbyterian, Methodist to independent evangelical confesses the Triune God. So: they - we -are all wrong, and you are right?

As I said a few posts ago, if Sass was in agreement with you that is the time to worry.

[Sebastian Toe]

Sass, we've been through this. Every mainstream Christian denomination - from Orthodox through RCC, Anglican through Presbyterian, Methodist to independent evangelical confesses the Triune God. So: they - we -are all wrong, and you are right?

Sass is never, ever, ever wrong. I'm surprised that you haven't twigged that yet? 

[Hope]

The Bible can be interpreted any way you want it to be, imo. If Jesus was the promised Messiah it is strange so few Jews regarded him as such, it doesn't appear his own family did either!

Floo, you've made this claim so many times over the years, and been corrected so many times.  Why continue with your deliberate falsehood?

To remind both you and others of the correction that has been made so often, we know for certain that his mother believed that he was the Messiah, and that his brother James also believed this (after all, he became a leading light in the very church that sprung up in Jerusalem after the departure of his brother).  We have no idea of Joseph's oipinions, other than the fact that he accepted the message he was given prior to Jesus' birth in Matthew 1: 23b; we also have no idea how many brothers and sisters Jesus had, so can't judge at that level.  May I suggest that 2 definites out of 3 possibles is a fairly good proportion.

[Brownie]

(According to the Bible) I am pretty sure Joseph did believe in Jesus as the Messiah because, as you say, he accepted what he was told in a vision and considered raising Jesus to be a sacred charge.

Jesus's cousin, John-the-Baptist, J-the-B's mother, Elizabeth and father, Zechariah certainly did.

[floo]

(According to the Bible) I am pretty sure Joseph did believe in Jesus as the Messiah because, as you say, he accepted what he was told in a vision and considered raising Jesus to be a sacred charge.

Jesus's cousin, John-the-Baptist, J-the-B's mother, Elizabeth and father, Zechariah certainly did.

According to the Bible, I doubt it, but we will have to agree to differ!

[Spud]

Thanks for your greeting Ricky...even if guarded...I would advise anyone to be little guarded in this day and age.

I personally see Jesus in those chapters of Isaiah. Almighty God talks about a person carrying the burden of all transgression and this is Jesus...the recognised Messiah for all time. Any other who might carry a similar role will do it with Jesus as his spiritual leader so it will all come back to Jesus just as everything connected to Jesus' accurate teaching all comes back to Almighty God. The pattern of oppression always carries similar techniques and the pattern of repair, resurrection, and the lifting out of oppression carries similar counter-techniques and whether past, present, or future, Jesus, our Messiah, has stamped his authority upon them.

Hi Nick,
I'm not sure Ricky will be happy with just saying that one sees Jesus in Isaiah 53. I think he's saying that the Christian interpretation of the passage is wrong, because in Isaiah 42 onward the Servant is the nation of Israel.
Isaiah 49:5 makes it clear that the Servant is not all Israel, but the righteous remnant, who will restore the nation to a right relationship with God.
The way in which Jesus fulfills this is by being completely righteous, untainted by sin. So whereas the righteous remnant of Israel did cause many Gentiles to follow Yahweh after the exile, that is a foreshadowing of Jesus, who was without sin and became the one sacrifice that all the animal sacrifices had pointed to.

[Brownie]

Hmmmm; Bunkum, Sass? Well, in your eyes, possibly. Not in the eyes of my friend - an elder in the Jirk in Glasgow - and a Messanic Jew. Or, for that matter, in the eyes of a few Anglicans who are also Messianic Jews, confessing Christ as their Lord an Saviour, and God Incarnate - as per normal mainstream Christian doctrine.

Is it really so important whether or not Christians believe in the Trinity

[Nearly Sane]

Is it really so important whether or not Christians believe in the Trinity

Is it really so important or not if Christians believe in ......

[Hope]

According to the Bible, I doubt it, but we will have to agree to differ!

Chapter(s) and verse(s), please, Floo.

[Hope]

What a load of bunkum... Show me where Christ or the Apostles taught that you are saved by believing in the trinity or even just God.

Not sure that anyone, Christian or otherwise, has suggested that one is saved by 'believing in the trinity', Sass.  One is saved by the shed blood of Christ, and his resurrection from death confirms that.  However, the Trinity is an important aspect of one's appreciation of the Godhead.  In fact, the concept of the Trinity had existed in Judaism since many centuries before Christ's lifetime.

[Anchorman]

Is it really so important whether or not Christians believe in the Trinity

Yes. Because Christians can only accept One God, worship One God - and the Triune nature of God is the only definition of God which really works in the end. If we accept only One god, then the idea of the atonement makes sense (theologically - sorry, atheists) Were Christ only a man, albeit a man imbibed with God's very nature, it would not. I'll be the first to own up that trying to make the doctrine of the Trinity simple is like trying to convince a Jehova Witness that Stornoway black pudding is a culinary essential, however, here's a reasonably jargon free site which helps - a bit. http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/what-does-christianity-say-about-the-nature-of-god/

[Ricky Spanish]

I too see Jesus in those passages.

In what way?

Every mention of this servant is in the past tense, as in in the writers past.

Was this passage written after "Jesus" death??

12 states: "12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors, and he bare the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.

It is also littered with past tense verbs, as is the whole passage: was, bare, shall, made, etc.

Nothing futuristic about the servant mentioned in this "reading" and I'm still waiting for someone to point out where a messiah is stated in this passage!!

[Brownie]

Yes. Because Christians can only accept One God, worship One God - and the Triune nature of God is the only definition of God which really works in the end. If we accept only One god, then the idea of the atonement makes sense (theologically - sorry, atheists) Were Christ only a man, albeit a man imbibed with God's very nature, it would not. I'll be the first to own up that trying to make the doctrine of the Trinity simple is like trying to convince a Jehova Witness that Stornoway black pudding is a culinary essential, however, here's a reasonably jargon free site which helps - a bit. http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/what-does-christianity-say-about-the-nature-of-god/

Sass is not alone in revering Jesus as the Son of God, but not God.  There are Christian groups (other than JWs and LDS), who hold to the same, as well as individual Christians who have come to that conclusion.

I believe in the Trinity but do not consider that salvation is conditional upon that belief. 

It's obviously important to you, Anchorman.  To me, it is an issue on which Christians can disagree. 

[Sassy]

Hmmmm; Bunkum, Sass? Well, in your eyes, possibly. Not in the eyes of my friend - an elder in the Jirk in Glasgow - and a Messanic Jew. Or, for that matter, in the eyes of a few Anglicans who are also Messianic Jews, confessing Christ as their Lord an Saviour, and God Incarnate - as per normal mainstream Christian doctrine.

The evidence is all in the OT and assumption is the mother of all wrong results.

You see God clearly says that he would raise up a Prophet like Moses not become born as a man himself. As Moses was a god unto humans sent by God given the beliefs of Egyptians, we see that Christ showed by his divine NATURE not being God but showing and revealing the nature of the true God, that he made God known to us as Moses made God known to the King of Egypt who wrongly thought he was a god.

If we follow the Gospels and we follow the teachings of the disciples especially John we see God making it clear that Christ was FULLY human and his nature alone was divine.
In fact it is clear that we are to KNOW Christ had come in the flesh because even then people wrongly started to believe Christ to be God, rather than be the Son of God because he did as his Father would do. A clear message from Christ when he spoke to the descendants of Abraham when they said Abraham is our Father.  Christ said. " If Abraham was your Father you would do as he did." Which is why Christ does everything as the Father did.

My knowledge of the Trinity was God in three persons that the Holy Spirit and Christ did the will of God and the Holy Spirit enabled each person to do the will of God and live according to Gods truth.  The first thing we learn is there is one God. We can see from Peter and from Christ that there was no difference in the belief that Christ spoke according to the words given him by the Holy Spirit and that God was with Christ having sent him.

If you check history you will see Christ came to us as Moses was sent to the Egyptians to save Gods people.  You make a big deal about calling Christ, God. But eternal life is as Christ has clearly taught. Eternal life is knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent.

The very first thing which the Angel makes clear to Mary is this:

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

He is not given Gods throne but the throne of David. The throne of his Father David. Can David be Gods Father? He is to be called the Son of God. A clear testimony that God is not and never had given Christ his own title or his own throne. As David was a King of Humans so Christ is Gods king for eternity over humans.
Paul says something very significant.

KJV   And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Look at all the different bibles and it clearly shows that Christ will put himself back under God. Because whilst we are to obey Christ we are to do as he says.

Christ clearly tells everyone. "If you love me, you will obey my commandments."

1st Commandment is to love the LORD your God with all your heart etc.

So unless you love God more than you love yourself and Christ, you cannot love God or Christ.

So it is in knowing God and Christ that eternal life is what it is.

John 17:3
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

John says:-

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

You see even then people taught God has come in the flesh. But Peter and the disciples never taught that.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Peter definitely said Jesus anointed with the Holy Ghost and given power. That God was with him. Even the evil spirits knew Christ to be the Son of God.

Luke 4:41King James Version (KJV)

41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

We love God more than Christ because we know the truth that God so loved the world...
Christ came to make God our Father known to us, to bring us to God.
If Christ was God himself how did he get around the veil in the Temple because Man cannot look upon God whilst dead in his sinful nature and live. Christ is the mediator between man and God.  So we can disagree but the words of the disciples and Christ in the NT, and the words of God and the Prophets in the OT show Jesus is to be known as the Son of God. That even the devil and evil Spirits knew and called Christ the Son of God.


Matthew 4:10
Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

God cannot be tested or tempted and why would Satan, if he thought Christ was God actually ask him to worship, him. Christ the Son of God serving and worshipping the LORD God only.

The truth is we all have to give an account and the account we give is based on the truth we know and the God we love and serve. Without Christ, would we have been able to know who God is?  Christ lived by every word which proceeded from the mouth of God and we are no different we too must follow his example not worship Christ as God but Worship God giving God thanks for his Son and remaining faithful to the truth set out from the beginning time.

No matter what you may feel the word does not change the truth that Jesus is the Son of God. And Satan could not and would not ask GOD himself to worship him.
You note all the things that Satan uses in his testing of Christ then think of the words God tells us...

Psalm 24:1. (KJV)

24 The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.


As God already owns everything the earth, the fullness and the world and everything in it. How could Satan offer God his own to worship him? Satan was offering Christ, who was fully human and the Son of GOD. God already owned what Satan was offering Christ.
Therein lies biggest deception of Satan thinking he could actually offer any person anything that belongs to God. Christ is the Son of God and he lived by every word of God knowing the truth that Satan could offer him NOTHING.

[Sassy]

Sass, we've been through this. Every mainstream Christian denomination - from Orthodox through RCC, Anglican through Presbyterian, Methodist to independent evangelical confesses the Triune God. So: they - we -are all wrong, and you are right?

Look at the post before this...

How many Jews believe Christ is not the Messiah? Millions?
So now who are right? Is Christ and the truth decided by the number of believers or the word of God? Are the RCC right in the worship of Mary and Saints?
Everyone had to give an account of themselves not the individual denomintations they follow. You know and I know that God says man has to live by every word that comes from his mouth not mans.

But let us remind ourselves of what God teaches us in those words.

King James Bible
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.


Why would so few find the entrance and enter in the correct gate?
We cannot follow mans teachings we must follow Christ and worship God alone.

[floo]

Look at the post before this...

How many Jews believe Christ is not the Messiah? Millions?
So now who are right? Is Christ and the truth decided by the number of believers or the word of God? Are the RCC right in the worship of Mary and Saints?
Everyone had to give an account of themselves not the individual denomintations they follow. You know and I know that God says man has to live by every word that comes from his mouth not mans.

But let us remind ourselves of what God teaches us in those words.

King James Bible
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.


Why would so few find the entrance and enter in the correct gate?
We cannot follow mans teachings we must follow Christ and worship God alone.

I wonder if you will be waved into heaven, or if the door is shut in your face? You certainly don't do the faith you espouse any favours!

[Anchorman]

Sass..... Worship God alone! Yep. Thanks for confirming the deity of Christ. And, since there is but One God - for the Christians - thanks also for confirming Christ as part of the Godhead - the triune nature of God. Even the KJV, to which you seem to cling like a limpet, confirms on at least eight occasions, that Christ was, is and shall be worshipped - a prerogative that the Jews rightly reserved to God alone. Cheers, Sass - and thanks.

[Ricky Spanish]

Is there a sect/cult of christians known as Johnanists?

[Nearly Sane]

Is there a sect/cult of christians known as Johnanists?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannite_Church

[Ricky Spanish]

Hmmm - Interesting read NS... Seems like we might have a Johannine in our midsts!!

[Brownie]

Sass..... Worship God alone! Yep. Thanks for confirming the deity of Christ. And, since there is but One God - for the Christians - thanks also for confirming Christ as part of the Godhead - the triune nature of God. Even the KJV, to which you seem to cling like a limpet, confirms on at least eight occasions, that Christ was, is and shall be worshipped - a prerogative that the Jews rightly reserved to God alone. Cheers, Sass - and thanks.

Sassy has not in any way confirmed the deity of Christ, Anchorman, unless you and I are reading different posts.

What she has quoted affirm Sassy's belief that Jesus is son of God but not God.  You are obviously interpreting them differently.

You sound quite triumphant in your post but that is misplaced;  there is nothing inherently wrong with what Sassy believes, she has obviously researched and prayed about the issue and her conclusion is merely different to yours.

If any of us is in error about the issue, so be it.  Our God is not petty enough to condemn us for it.

I looked up Johannites and found them quite fascinating!  An inclusive group, something for everyone.
Good for them.  Not my scene, but can see the attraction - for some (all my above comments are addressed to believers in God, anyone else will consider them irrelevant). 

Johannites do affirm the Trinity.  Can't think of any poster here who would be that interested.

[Sebastian Toe]

Sassy has not in any way confirmed the deity of Christ, Anchorman, unless you and I are reading different posts.

What she has quoted affirm Sassy's belief that Jesus is son of God but not God.  You are obviously interpreting them differently.

You sound quite triumphant in your post but that is misplaced;  there is nothing inherently wrong with what Sassy believes, she has obviously researched and prayed about the issue and her conclusion is merely different to yours.

If any of us is in error about the issue, so be it.  Our God is not petty enough to condemn us for it.

I looked up Johannites and found them quite fascinating!  An inclusive group, something for everyone.
Good for them.  Not my scene, but can see the attraction - for some (all my above comments are addressed to believers in God, anyone else will consider them irrelevant). 

Johannites do affirm the Trinity.  Can't think of any poster here who would be that interested.

I'm not sure that Sassy believes it. I think that she knows it for a FACT!