Author Topic: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..  (Read 64725 times)

Ricky Spanish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #400 on: November 27, 2016, 05:22:43 PM »
I too see Jesus in those passages.

Where do you see "Jesus" in the passages?

Point them out to me, so I can see them too.

Every mention of this servant is in the past tense, as in in the writers past.

Was this passage written after "Jesus" death??

12 states: "12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors, and he bare the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.

It is also littered with past tense verbs, as is the whole passage: was, bare, shall, made, etc.

Nothing futuristic about the servant mentioned in this "reading" and I'm still waiting for someone to point out where a messiah is stated in this passage!!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 05:25:47 PM by Ricky Spanish »
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7138
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #401 on: November 27, 2016, 05:49:13 PM »
Ricky Spanish,
What do you make of Isaiah 49:5? The Servant is distinct from the nation of Israel in this verse.

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #402 on: November 27, 2016, 07:27:02 PM »
I believe in the Trinity but do not consider that salvation is conditional upon that belief. 

It's obviously important to you, Anchorman.  To me, it is an issue on which Christians can disagree.
But if Jesus isn't God, any idea that salvation of the type that is referred to across the Old Testament is impossible through Jesus because he is no less a flawed and damaged being than the animals the Jews sacrificed throughout the OT.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #403 on: November 27, 2016, 07:50:22 PM »
Where do you see "Jesus" in the passages?

Point them out to me, so I can see them too.

Every mention of this servant is in the past tense, as in in the writers past.
Except for the tenses in the first part of verse 12, Ricky.  Those are both future tenses.  It is a fairly common practice in many languages to use the past tense when explaining the means by which something in the future will occur.

Incidentally, most Jews regard the passage under discussion to be looking forward to the Messiah they were waiting for.  However, Isaiah (the book) dates to before the period in which Israel and Judah became vassal nations of the Babylonian/Persian/Ptolemaic/Seleucid Empires from the early-6th century to the late-3rd century BC.  As a result, it doesn't look for a Messiah along the lines of the politico-militaristic Messiah that had become the norm by the time Jesus was born.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #404 on: November 27, 2016, 08:02:17 PM »
But if Jesus isn't God, any idea that salvation of the type that is referred to across the Old Testament is impossible through Jesus because he is no less a flawed and damaged being than the animals the Jews sacrificed throughout the OT.
It works perfectly well for people like Sassy. Is she not a Christian?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #405 on: November 27, 2016, 08:23:11 PM »
It works perfectly well for people like Sassy. Is she not a Christian?
I don't know Sassy other than from here.  It isn't for me to judge; her maker will be doing that in time.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #406 on: November 27, 2016, 08:34:15 PM »
I don't know Sassy other than from here.  It isn't for me to judge; her maker will be doing that in time.
But you have however said that any idea of salvation for her through Jesus is impossible though!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #407 on: November 27, 2016, 10:52:44 PM »
But if Jesus isn't God, any idea that salvation of the type that is referred to across the Old Testament is impossible through Jesus because he is no less a flawed and damaged being than the animals the Jews sacrificed throughout the OT.
[/quote


Wot Hope said.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7138
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #408 on: November 27, 2016, 11:04:23 PM »
There is a catechism, it's precise name has gone from my head, (Heidelberg?) which points out that whoever is to atone for mankind's sin must be both 100℅ sinless, and must be fully human. But only God himself is without sin. So only someone who is fully God and fully man can save us.

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #409 on: November 27, 2016, 11:11:08 PM »
Why could God not have created a sinless human being for his son, Spud?
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #410 on: November 27, 2016, 11:17:01 PM »
Problem there, Brownie, is that it conflicts with Scripture... "All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory" The "All" referes to humanity. Were Jesus only human he would have fallen into that category....and the whole horror of Calvary would have been for nothing. That, as Scripture puts it "The full nature of God was in Him" - in other words, all the attributes, qualities and personhood of God in human form was in Him, makes the sacrifice on Calvary relevant.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

floo

  • Guest
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #411 on: November 28, 2016, 08:41:26 AM »
There is a catechism, it's precise name has gone from my head, (Heidelberg?) which points out that whoever is to atone for mankind's sin must be both 100℅ sinless, and must be fully human. But only God himself is without sin. So only someone who is fully God and fully man can save us.


That is a joke if the accounts of it actions had an credibility! :o

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #412 on: November 28, 2016, 12:04:59 PM »
There is a catechism, it's precise name has gone from my head, (Heidelberg?) which points out that whoever is to atone for mankind's sin must be both 100℅ sinless, and must be fully human. But only God himself is without sin. So only someone who is fully God and fully man can save us.

WRONG, the angels with God are without sin.King James Bible

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Angels can sin but if they do sin they too will be judged, those with God do not sin. But God cannot sin and there lies the truth of what you think you know. Whilst Angels and Christ can sin the true God cannot sin.

The first passages of  the NT tell us in the  synoptic gospels that Christ is tested and tempted by Satan.

4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


No one can tempt or test God because he is without sin and cannot be tested, tempted or sin.

It is clear that Christ was fully human and that he could be tested, tempted and if he chose could sin.

If, we correctly trust God and let him through the Holy Spirit reveal his word we can see the truth being taught.
King James Bible
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.






We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

floo

  • Guest
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #413 on: November 28, 2016, 12:05:53 PM »
Yeh right! ::)

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7138
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #414 on: November 28, 2016, 04:34:13 PM »
Sassy,

I misquoted the Heidelberg Catechism. Instead of saying that only God himself is without sin (which is incorrect, because some angels are without sin, which opens the possibility that an angel might redeem a human), I should have said that, to quote the Catechism, "no mere creature [which would include angels] can sustain the burden of God’s eternal wrath against sin, and redeem others therefrom."

It goes on to say,

Quote
15. What manner of mediator and redeemer then must we seek?
One who is a true and sinless man, and yet more powerful than all creatures, that is, one who is at the same time true God.

LORD’S DAY 6

16. Why must He be a true and sinless man?
Because the justice of God requires, that the same human nature which has sinned should make satisfaction for sin; but no man, being himself a sinner, could satisfy for others.

17. Why must He be at the same time true God?
That by the power of His Godhead He might bear in His manhood the burden of God’s wrath and so obtain for and restore to us righteousness and life.

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #415 on: November 28, 2016, 04:50:28 PM »
Sassy,

 I should have said that, to quote the Catechism, "no mere creature [which would include angels] can sustain the burden of God’s eternal wrath against sin, and redeem others therefrom."

It goes on to say,

This is an extremely unpleasant image of God (though not without scriptural support in some places). In accordance with my view that you can work out a myriad of doctrines from the Bible if you're daft enough to think it has a consistent message, I will cherry-pick a couple of scriptures to show that no other being at all is required to redeem anyone.

Since we're talking Isaiah, here's Isaiah chapter 1:
"Come, let us reason together: though your sins be scarlet, they shall be white as snow"

and this from Micah 7:

" Who is a God like thee, pardoning iniquity
and passing over transgression
for the remnant of his inheritance?
He does not retain his anger for ever
because he delights in steadfast love.
[19] He will again have compassion upon us,
he will tread our iniquities under foot.
Thou wilt cast all our sins
into the depths of the sea."

Bugger all about vicarious atonement there.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #416 on: November 28, 2016, 05:15:09 PM »
Hi Dicky,

I can see how it does paint a horrible image of God but I've always seen it as a picture of an awesome God;  it doesn't say God will exercise his prerogative to pour out his wrath.

Thinking about sin, we all have different ideas about what constitutes sin.  We know the BIG ones but the endless small ones?

It's quite wonderful, for Christians, to have a Heavenly Father who is so powerful that he could metaphorically snap his fingers to do anything but will not harm us. 

We'll have many occasions in this life to squirm, be reprimanded, to try and make up, and feel rotten about our mistakes, which is punishment enough.  As a result, there are times when we make a positive effort to be stronger in some areas which can't be bad.

(Some of this is being discussed on a thread started by Sassy today, which atm seems to be coming along well.)
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #417 on: November 28, 2016, 05:56:37 PM »
But you have however said that any idea of salvation for her through Jesus is impossible though!
No I have said that Jesus' offer of salvation only makes sense in the context of the Trinity.  I haven't made any judgement on any given person.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #418 on: November 28, 2016, 06:00:05 PM »

That is a joke if the accounts of it actions had an credibility! :o
Or perhaps it is a flawed understanding of reality that enables you to say such things?  You have yet to provide us with any honest examples of the actions you so detest.  I suppose you will suggest his love of humanity, his wish to protect his own, his mercifulness, ... .
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #419 on: November 28, 2016, 06:02:21 PM »
...I will cherry-pick a couple of scriptures to show that no other being at all is required to redeem anyone.
Contexts please, Dicky.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #420 on: November 28, 2016, 08:59:16 PM »
Contexts please, Dicky.

No I have said that Jesus' offer of salvation only makes sense in the context of the Trinity.  I haven't made any judgement on any given person.

No you definitely haven't, Hope, not on anyone.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

floo

  • Guest
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #421 on: November 29, 2016, 08:32:42 AM »
Or perhaps it is a flawed understanding of reality that enables you to say such things?  You have yet to provide us with any honest examples of the actions you so detest.  I suppose you will suggest his love of humanity, his wish to protect his own, his mercifulness, ... .

Your understanding of the concept of the term 'love' appears to be flawed.  God has NO love humanity if the mythical flood story had been true, it shows hate not love.

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #422 on: November 29, 2016, 09:34:36 AM »
Sassy,

I misquoted the Heidelberg Catechism. Instead of saying that only God himself is without sin (which is incorrect, because some angels are without sin, which opens the possibility that an angel might redeem a human), I should have said that, to quote the Catechism, "no mere creature [which would include angels] can sustain the burden of God’s eternal wrath against sin, and redeem others therefrom."

It goes on to say,

Spud,

An angel cannot redeem a human.  The fact is a human had to die for humans.  The first sacrifices were animals.
But the veil could not be removed for the sacrifice was not the death of a human. Like one man caused all to die it has to be one man who gives life back to all.
The difference between, Christ, Angels and God, is that God cannot sin. Both Angels and Humans can sin.

You see even when fallen Angels cannot die they await the judgement even now.
But man did die and a man had to die to save us and bring us back to God.  Jesus was in fact a second Adam.
Made and created solely by the word of God.He was not conceived in sin. Like Adam, Jesus was spoken into being.  The word made flesh as Adam too, was the word made flesh.



We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #423 on: November 29, 2016, 04:46:12 PM »
Hi Dicky,

I can see how it does paint a horrible image of God but I've always seen it as a picture of an awesome God;  it doesn't say God will exercise his prerogative to pour out his wrath.

Thinking about sin, we all have different ideas about what constitutes sin.  We know the BIG ones but the endless small ones?

It's quite wonderful, for Christians, to have a Heavenly Father who is so powerful that he could metaphorically snap his fingers to do anything but will not harm us.

God or no God, we all know our life on earth is precarious, and that it might end in an instant for any one of us. We are harmed - day after day, sometimes through completely avoidable negligent actions, sometimes just through the quirks of fate. It is very difficult to see the hand of God in anyones' lives, and the arguments for an interventionist God have often been aired on here, with little success. Yes, maybe he could 'snap his fingers metaphorically' - and sometimes one wishes he would -  to prevent harm, not to cause it. However Alan B assures us that it we pray hard enough, we may be rewarded with finding a lost contact lens.

Yes, it is evident that believers have different ideas about what constitutes sin, and it is clear that there are many ideas about what the Biblical writers thought sin was. The earlier OT prophets thought that following the Law of the Covenant would mean automatic reward in this life. The Hebrews eventually came to think that even if they did not keep the law they might buy off God with the appropriate sacrifices. However, it is hinted in Jeremiah, and explicit in Isaiah and Micah that all this animal sacrificing is completely futile, and all that is required is "to do justly and to love mercy". And of course, poor old Job, "a righteous man" really got it in the neck.

The peculiar slant that St Paul gave to "sin" - alluded to in the quote I was commenting on - has given rise to most bizarre doctrine that most Christians seem to think is central to their faith. St Paul, of course, made particular reference to the life of Abraham (he seemed happy to dismiss just about everything else about Judaism), and was drawn to that gruesome episode known as the "Binding of Isaac" which so gets up Floo's nose :). However, the real point of the story is that Isaac did not die, and apart from one instance (Jephtha), this seems to have been the end of child sacrifice for the Jews - whereas the peoples around them went on sacrificing children for hundreds of years. Good old St Paul, though - the Jews having rejected child sacrifice for expiation of "sin" - he brings back the concept of human sacrifice in the form of Jesus. Except that Jesus is supposed to be both human and divine. And he adds to his bizarre atonement scenario the idea that you have to accept Jesus' sacrifice to "have your sins forgiven".

Quote
We'll have many occasions in this life to squirm, be reprimanded, to try and make up, and feel rotten about our mistakes, which is punishment enough.  As a result, there are times when we make a positive effort to be stronger in some areas which can't be bad.

Yup, and it's up to us to make reparation, if we realise that we've really behaved in a vile manner, not to put it all on Jesus. That of course may be difficult for murderers who come to realise the full measure of their crimes. Still, I don't see Jesus as a patent remedy for guilty consciences.


"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7138
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #424 on: November 29, 2016, 07:04:19 PM »
Dicky, thanks for the two interesting posts.