Author Topic: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..  (Read 62658 times)

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7081
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #450 on: December 05, 2016, 12:12:35 PM »
He is winding you up.
You may be right there.
Quote
Knowing Christ and God the Father it should not be required of you to answer his wind up.
I am interested to know if Isaiah's prophecies can be legitimately interpreted as Messianic. Unfortunately, Ricky doesn't engage much.

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #451 on: December 05, 2016, 03:57:55 PM »
You may be right there.I am interested to know if Isaiah's prophecies can be legitimately interpreted as Messianic. Unfortunately, Ricky doesn't engage much.

Ricky, looks for proof the bible is wrong. He has yet to reach the end of his road and realise it is a dead end. He takes what he finds/thinks he knows to be right and tests it. Unfortunately, you were the one caught up with this issue. The fact is he has no evidence and so tests the theories of what he finds against the knowledge of others.

One day he might search for truth in the obeying of the word and find it.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

floo

  • Guest
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #452 on: December 05, 2016, 03:59:12 PM »
Ricky, looks for proof the bible is wrong. He has yet to reach the end of his road and realise it is a dead end. He takes what he finds/thinks he knows to be right and tests it. Unfortunately, you were the one caught up with this issue. The fact is he has no evidence and so tests the theories of what he finds against the knowledge of others.

One day he might search for truth in the obeying of the word and find it.

You haven't any proof the Bible is right!

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4340
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #453 on: December 05, 2016, 04:29:23 PM »
Does the use of the past tense always refer to events prior to writing, Ricky?  Might be worth checking your grammar books.

Take this example.  "By the end of this week, we will have had 5 days of sub-zero temperatures."

Not saying that Ricky has produced a 100% watertight argument, but your example is what is known as the future perfect tense, not the past tense (or at least it was when I was at school and university).
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 04:48:19 PM by Dicky Underpants »
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7700
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #454 on: December 05, 2016, 06:02:35 PM »
Does the use of the past tense always refer to events prior to writing, Ricky?  Might be worth checking your grammar books.

Take this example.  "By the end of this week, we will have had 5 days of sub-zero temperatures."

Please tell me which grammar book you have been using.
That will warn anyone reading this to not buy it.
Now throw your copy in the bin.

The FUTURE PERFECT TENSE indicates that an action will have been completed (finished or "perfected") at some point in the future. This tense is formed with "will" plus "have" plus the past participle of the verb (which can be either regular or irregular in form): "I will have spent all my money by this time next year. I will have run successfully in three marathons if I can finish this one."
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/GRAMMAr/tenses/future_perfect.htm


The future perfect is a verb form or construction used to describe an event that is expected or planned to happen before a time of reference in the future, such as will have finished in the English sentence "I will have finished by tomorrow." It is a grammatical combination of the future tense, or other marking of future time, and the perfect, a grammatical aspect that views an event as prior and completed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_perfect
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7081
Re: Isaiah 52:13-53: whatever..
« Reply #455 on: December 16, 2016, 08:23:11 PM »
I've been looking at this quite extensively, in particular using Keil and Delitschz's commentary. In their notes on Isaiah 42:1, they say,

Quote
Now the "servant of Jehovah" is always Israel. But since Israel might be regarded either according to the character of the overwhelming majority of its members (the mass), who had forgotten their calling, or according to the character of those living members who had remained true to their calling, and constituted the kernel, or as concentrated in that one Person who is the essence of Israel in the fullest truth and highest potency, statements of the most opposite kind could be made with respect to this one homonymous subject. In Isaiah 41:8. the "servant of Jehovah" is caressed and comforted, inasmuch as there the true Israel, which deserved and needed consolation, is addressed, without regard to the mass who had forgotten their calling. In Isaiah 42:1. that One person is referred to, who is, as it were, the centre of this inner circle of Israel, and the head upon the body of Israel. And in the passage before us, the idea is carried from this its highest point back again to its lowest basis; and the servant of Jehovah is blamed and reproved for the harsh contrast between its actual conduct and its divine calling, between the reality and the idea. As we proceed, we shall meet again with the "servant of Jehovah" in the same systole and diastole. The expression covers two concentric circles, and their one centre. The inner circle of the "Israel according to the Spirit" forms the connecting link between Israel in its widest sense, and Israel in a personal sense. Here indeed Israel is severely blamed as incapable, and unworthy of fulfilling its sacred calling; but the expression "whom I send" nevertheless affirms that it will fulfil it - namely, in the person of the servant of Jehovah, and in all those members of the "servant of Jehovah" in a national sense, who long for deliverance from the ban and bonds of the present state of punishment (see Isaiah 29:18). For it is really the mission of Israel to be the medium of salvation and blessing to the nations; and this is fulfilled by the servant of Jehovah, who proceeds from Israel, and takes his place at the head of Israel. And as the history of the fulfilment shows, when the foundation for the accomplishment of this mission had been laid by the servant of Jehovah in person, it was carried on by the servant of Jehovah in a national sense; for the Lord became "a covenant of the people" through His own preaching and that of His apostles. But "a light of the Gentiles" He became purely and simply through the apostles, who represented the true and believing Israel.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/kad/isaiah/42.htm

So to sum this up, the term, the Servant of Jehovah, can be used by the author to denote either
1. The whole nation of Israel, which had forgotten its calling
2. The faithful members of the nation, who'd remained true to their calling
3. The one individual representative of Israel who would fulfill Israel's mission to the world, and under whom Israel would continue in that mission.

The quote below expands on point 3:

Quote
In the first part of the book of Isaiah, the anticipation of a new king who will help God’s people respond faithfully to Him gradually comes to the foreground (9:2-7, 11:1-16). Israel’s past kings had miserably failed. So the people longed for a new intervention by God. God had raised David to establish the nation. Now the people yearned for a righteous and just king like David (11:3-5) who would teach them how to be God’s people (note Psalm 72).

http://www.crivoice.org/isa53.html

Clearly the coming king mentioned in the passages quoted here is in the mind of Isaiah as he writes the passages known as the 'Servant Songs'.

This may also be why Matthew begins with a genealogy that shows Jesus to be an Israelite by descent, qualifying him for the role as 'the Servant who is the true Israel'.