English National Anthem (again)

[Hope]

I hear that there is to be a debate on whether England should have its own anthem, especially for sporting events.

The usual suspects have ben suggested, but I was interested to hear someone suggest this morning Bowie's 'Heroes' (though I'm not sure that we want our sports folk to be heroes 'just for one day').

What do our Celtic brothers and sisters feel would be something they would NOT want to hear before a match with England?

[Outrider]

I was under the impression that 'Land of Hope and Glory' was the front-runner - certainly seems a better fit than a song titled for a city in a foreign land.

As a half-Scot, I'd prefer England to have a national anthem that wasn't Britain's - playing 'God Save the Queen' at the Calcutta Cup for England just sort of suggests that Britain is really England (coupled with fact that they play 'Flower of Scotland' rather than 'Scotland the Brave').

I don't recall who it was, might have been Jim Jeffries, who turned that on its head a little: 'I come to Twickenham and they play me two anthems, and the home team only one'

O.

[Rhiannon]

Jerusalem isn't religious, it's visionary.

[Rhiannon]

I thought the feet in ancient times was a reference to Jesus ........   

It does. It's an evocation of the myth that Joseph of Aramathea was Jesus' uncle, and brought him here on his travels as a merchant.

Myth, not religion, even though it features a religious figure. It's a rail against the tyranny both of the industrial revolution and in general.

http://socialistreview.org.uk/372/blakes-jerusalem

[Rhiannon]

Having read your link I can see why it could be suitable.

 

Yes, I went back and out the link in once I found a good summary.

I think I favour Jerusalem because of its complexity. Given the views of Blake and the situation that was the background to his writing it you can see it as an anthem against war, against the ruling elite, against environmental destruction. At the same time it is beautifully evocative of the English landscape. It strikes me as an intelligent choice, even if it does find favour with right as well as left.

[jakswan]

Best one I've heard 'Always look on the bright side of life'

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECUtkv2qV8

[ProfessorDavey]

Blow the bloomin sport.   

Apparently the favourite is Jerusalem 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-35296296

What do you think?
( there is a link to listen to it)


And did those feet in ancient times..........?

Is it too religious for today's England?

NSS & BHS will be having a fit LOL

Something else for them to grumble about   

I think Jerusalem is great and would be an excellent national anthem.

I don't really see it as religious at all, although I understand why others do. It is certainly not overtly religious and the clever thing about it is that it can be read in many different ways - so I agree with Rhiannon that it is visionary.

My reading of it is about striving to make your country better, for everyone - the notion of 'Jerusalem' being a metaphor for a better world - so to strive to build Jerusalem (a better place) in our backyard, so to speak.

And I think that's why it could gain traction - those who are religious can take it as a religious allegorical statement, those who aren't can take it as a non religious allegorical statement about working together to make our country a better place for those that live here.

It's also got a great and stirring tune.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes, I went back and out the link in once I found a good summary.

I think I favour Jerusalem because of its complexity. Given the views of Blake and the situation that was the background to his writing it you can see it as an anthem against war, against the ruling elite, against environmental destruction. At the same time it is beautifully evocative of the English landscape. It strikes me as an intelligent choice, even if it does find favour with right as well as left.

In a way that's its beauty from the perspective of its words.

It is so clever that socialists are happy to claim it as speaking of their ideals of creating a more equal and just society, so to right wing nationalists for England to be seen as great. So to those who are religious who see its religious allegorical content as key, while the non religious see the religious imagery as merely a front for the real meaning which is humanist and about social idealism, not religious idealism (which is probably Blake's intention).

So somehow everyone is able to claim it as their own - very clever indeed.

[Shaker]

Yes, I went back and out the link in once I found a good summary.

I think I favour Jerusalem because of its complexity. Given the views of Blake and the situation that was the background to his writing it you can see it as an anthem against war, against the ruling elite, against environmental destruction. At the same time it is beautifully evocative of the English landscape. It strikes me as an intelligent choice, even if it does find favour with right as well as left.

I've always favoured it for additional reasons. If we're talking about a specifically English national anthem, one with words by William Blake, a tune by Sir Hubert Parry orchestrated by Sir Edward Elgar would seem to be just the ticket. Parry is not now very well known except amongst die hard music buffs, but in his day he was a major figure - he was a great composer.

[ProfessorDavey]

I've always favoured it for additional reasons. If we're talking about a specifically English national anthem, one with words by William Blake, a tune by Sir Hubert Parry orchestrated by Sir Edward Elgar would seem to be just the ticket. Parry is not now very well known except amongst die hard music buffs, but in his day he was a major figure - he was a great composer.

Indeed and I think the thing that sets Jerusalem above other options is the tune - it is so wonderfully stirring and sort of reverential, yet without a hint of pomposity.

Just stamps all over the two dimensionality of the likes of 'Land of Hope and Glory' or 'Rule Britannia', even if you ignore the rather obnoxiously nationalistic and jingoistic words of both of those.

The only other anthem I'd put anywhere close is 'I vow to thee my country' - again stirring without pomposity - words by Cecil Spring Rice, music by Gutav Holst.

[ProfessorDavey]

Ok

Having read Rhiannon's link it seems to have something for everyone and a good tune, so I'd be happy with that 

🌹

Indeed - unlike our current national anthem which is an awful turgid dirge (musically) and as a republican atheist the first five words run a coach and horses through two of my own firmly held views!!

[jeremyp]

The usual suspects have ben suggested, but I was interested to hear someone suggest this morning Bowie's 'Heroes' (though I'm not sure that we want our sports folk to be heroes 'just for one day').

If recent performances by our football and rugby union teams are anything to go by, "just for one day" would be a pleasant change. Baby steps...

What do our Celtic brothers and sisters feel would be something they would NOT want to hear before a match with England?

Is this with the intention of using it or avoiding it. How about the Flanders and Swann classic "A Song of Patriotic Prejudice".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8

[jeremyp]

I'd prefer England to have a national anthem that wasn't Britain's - playing 'God Save the Queen'

Nothing wrong with that:

God save the Queen, the fascist regime...

[ProfessorDavey]

Nothing wrong with that:

God save the Queen, the fascist regime...

Interesting how Johnny Rotten has now attained the status of national treasure.

[jeremyp]

Got another one: The Beatles, All You Need is Love.

It would be particularly good because the intro has quite a rousing trumpet tune in it.

[Nearly Sane]

Lyrics would need a small change but other than that think the Forest of Dean boys tune would be great.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1zlem-wZaow

[ProfessorDavey]

Got another one: The Beatles, All You Need is Love.

It would be particularly good cause the intro has quite a rousing trumpet tune  tune in it.

Isn't that the French national anthem!!

[jeremyp]

Isn't that the French national anthem!!

Yes, that was the joke (in the post, not the Marseillaise).

[Dicky Underpants]

I like the lyrics on this one but I don't  think the tune is strong enough. ( too dirge like)

Grown in one land alone
Where proud winds have blown
There’s not a flower born of the shower
Braver than England’s own
Though gales of winter blow
Piercing hail and snow
Shining she stays bright as in days of yore
Old England’s pride still blossoms
Fresh on Englands shore
Rose of England thou shall fade not here
Proud and bright from growing year to year
Red shall thy petals be as rich wine untold
Shared by thy warriors who served thee of old
Rose of England breathing England’s air
Flower of chivalry beyond compare
While hand and heart endure to cherish thy prime
Thou shalt blossom to the end of time
Rose of England breathing England’s air
Flower of liberty beyond compare
While hand and heart endure to cherish thy prime
Thou shalt blossom to the end of time

http://youtu.be/B3dD05mu3qQ

It is our national flower 🌹

It was written by a Welshman  but hey ho! 

I have a very old cassette of David Whitfield (anybody remember him?) singing it, ending on a top C - he succeeds in purging the dirge-like elements. I doubt many members of the public would be able to sing it ending on a high note though (whether C, or less stratospheric notes, depending on the key chosen for performance).
Whitfield sang like a Welshman, or an Italian, but was in fact born in that wonderfully exotic place, Hull.

[Gordon]

Given that there are more Tories in England, compared to here, and bearing in mind matters EU-phobic - what about 'Another Brick in the Wall'?

[wigginhall]

I fancy, 'Heaven Knows, I'm Miserable Now', (Smiths).  It could be sung before and after football games, to really get everyone in the mood. 

[Dicky Underpants]

I fancy, 'Heaven Knows, I'm Miserable Now', (Smiths).  It could be sung before and after football games, to really get everyone in the mood.

That would certainly express my mood if forced to watch a football match.

[jeremyp]

I fancy, 'Heaven Knows, I'm Miserable Now', (Smiths).  It could be sung before and after football games, to really get everyone in the mood.

Given the media reaction to any failure by any England team I think R.E.M. and "It's the End of the World as we Know it"

[Hope]

If recent performances by our football and rugby union teams are anything to go by, "just for one day" would be a pleasant change. Baby steps...

But surely heroes are those who succeed over time - or lose with style and effort - unlike some recent English teams.

[jeremyp]

But surely heroes are those who succeed over time - or lose with style and effort - unlike some recent English teams.

I hope you're not trying to claim that David Bowie was wrong.